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Thread: Lie Nielsen No.8 Jointer Plane scratched sole

  1. #1

    Lie Nielsen No.8 Jointer Plane scratched sole

    Hi,

    This is my first thread on this forum so, Hello to everyone! And hope my boring issue would be interesting to someone :)
    A few days ago I finished a project made of european beech and I decided to put some Alfie Shine Hard Wax on it, sold by Workshop Heaven in UK, great stuff, you should check it. I put it on a flat surface of the stand that I made and waited around 12 hours to cure, there is beeswax in it. Then I noticed that the surface wasn't perfectly flat and I decided to plane it again using the No.8 Jointer plane. The first shavings were a bit hard but not too much, I could feel them on my fingers not smooth as fresh wood of course but the handplane didn't struggle that much to remove some thousands of impregnated shavings.
    I then decided to plane another couple of soft pine slates and on the second one, as I flipped around the plane to adjust the iron I noticed scratches on the sole's surface, I was sliding a shim of wood on the blade to see where it was cutting more, and it seemed like if pieces of blade metal would detach from it and scratch the iron under my hand pressure, quite scary. When I looked at the blade with a 5 diopter lens it was all ragged. Never saw that level of wear with that few planing.
    My question is, could I have weakened the blade, planing a waxed and half-cured surface or maybe there was some grit embedded in the last wood that would have devastated the blade?
    But the most important doubt is, if I have a wax finished surface, should I strip it off with some acetone first or can I plane it right away. What about other finishes like shellac?
    Anyway even if the images look worse that is due to the light shining on the scratches, only a square inch behind the mouth is evident to the fingertip.
    I decided not to do anything and plane another 32 by 12 inches beech board and it came nearly perfect. Maybe not smooth like before but... that's life.
    Do you think it is bad what happened to me? I'm a novice and even though I process all my wood from raw stock to finished projects by hand, this scary thing never happened to me. If I find an acceptably flat float glass am I permitted to try to remove those scratches or shall I just try to remove the burrs?
    What would you do in my condition, how would you feel? This is important to me. Maybe a professional doesn't give importance to this or maybe doesn't make this silly mistakes. Then, how would you address already finished surfaces? That was just one coat of wax and I didn't strip it off.

    I posted an image of the sole

    Thanks,
    Bye from Italy, Rome :)
    Haitham Jaber


    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
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    Hi Haitham and welcome to the Creek.

    Has this plane had much use? In my experience A2 steel seems to chip more than other steels. That may be the problem if the blade hasn't been through a few sharpening cycles.

    Also A2 steel need its bevel to be at a higher angle than many other steels. My memory is failing to recall if it is 30 or 35ļ. Hopefully someone who uses A2 more than me will chime in.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  3. #3
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    I’m thinking the same as Jim. Sounds like a new blade + if your going to use a hand plane on wood with a finish definitely needs a stronger bevel.
    The scratches on the sole don’t look bad at all. Some of my LN planes have deep ones from who’s knows what.
    Good Luck
    Aj

  4. #4
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    Sole scratches happen and, as Andrew noted, donít look bad. I always use a scraper on anything with a finish, like a Stanley or Veritas 80 or better yet a Stanley 82, then a plane when the finish is removed. I suppose Acetone would work if you donít have either of the scrapers. Finding a Stanley 82 in Italy might be a problem, so the Veritas is likely your best bet. I have one; itís a terrific tool.

  5. #5
    Haitham:

    Lie Nielsen supplies the blade with a 25 degree bevel. They suggest honing a secondary bevel of 5 or 10 degrees to improve performance and I have had good results following this guidance. I don't think it is all that uncommon for these A2 blades to exhibit this kind of deformation when they are new and have not been honed to the higher bevel angle. As far as the scratches on the sole: don't worry about it. It happens and should not be a problem. In bocca al lupo!

    Phil
    Last edited by Phil Gaudio; 02-05-2023 at 11:11 PM.

  6. #6
    Along with above, one could speculate sharpening on yer bench perhaps?....angle grinding in the workshop? using a soft bench grinder wheel? loose grit from sanding operations?
    one could go on.
    Combine the above with tacky finish, inadequate lighting to spot the crud, cuts on the bench from chiselling or whatever damage is very hospitable for grit to reside.

    Chances are it's your iron which is causing the scratches, not the sole, bit of a wipe with a finger to remove a burr (which likely doesn't exist)
    with good 400g wet and dry would be the most aggressive I'd use, and good stuff that is
    i.e not cheap stuff which sheds grit.

    One could use fancy stuff which some use for rust blooms, cannot remember what it's called, but Cosman has a video of those various pads.

    Don't worry bout lapping the plane, it's a L-N with very very good tolerances, and a wee scratch isn't going to affect it.
    (and I'll mention re-sale value to discourage one from doing so, i.e it takes more observational kit/skills/habits/ than it sounds like what you've got ATM
    to not make it worse.

    Lets say that ya did, and the same thing happened again, I'd sooner (by a country mile) focus your energy on finding out the cause instead,
    Have you got an angle poise lamp to see properly, overhead lighting wouldn't cut the mustard for me, and I've got a smoother bench than anyone,
    and can clean off my bench easy, since I do a fair bit of metalwork.
    (it's a composite laboratory counter top, so grit won't get embedded because there ain't any pores, and I am very careful/thorough scrubbing off the ply which protects it from getting scraped)

    Might not be so easy with timber, but have a look at Frank Klausz's or Cosman's nicer workbenches, quite a lot of finish to protect it from grit, and all the rest.

    All the best

  7. #7
    @ Jim Koepeke: Thank you for the information on A2 steel, didn't know it is prone
    to chip this way. Pm-v11 steel is something incredibly hard. I used to run my
    block plane through end grain on and on until it wasn't cutting at all but when I looked it
    with lenses, no chips at all. Anyway I started to sharpen by hand so the bevel is
    steeper than 25 but I don't know how steep.

    @Andrew Hughes: Yes, also Deneb from Lie Nielsen told me that if I go through finishes,
    I should resharpen more often. Thank you for reassuring me about the scratches.
    Anyway I think that should have been some damned grit in the wood because I noticed
    the thing just on the third board. The grit was fresh over the sole, too. God knows what
    there was in that wood

    @ Stephen Rosenthal: Yes I own a Stanley 80 as well, should have used it. Thanks for the
    advice. Didn't think about using a scraper on finishes. That's a great tip

    @Phil Gaudio: Crepi il lupo! As I said before, that's not a new blade and has gone
    through several dozens of sharpenings. Just before mounting the blade, I remember I chipped
    a corner inadvertently and had to address it on a 10000 stone just to soften the corners
    I remember how easily it chipped so I think that I'm still stuck to low bevels. Should
    check it now that I'm thinking. Anyway that blade should have encountered some devil
    in the wood fibers

    @Tom Trees: Yes nobody knows and as long as I learn, the more I work more things
    will happen, so what I learnt?
    Checking the bevel angle, more now that I sharpen freehand
    Thinking before planing finished surface
    Resharpening more often? Well not, I sharpen quite often and that plane didn't work
    too much that day
    Checking the wood or addressing it first with a jack... yes
    Expecting that it will happen again. Definitely

    Thanks for suggesting me to use good stuff. I didn't think about the inconsistency of cheap sandpaper's grit

    Deneb from Lie Nielsen told me this:
    1. First see if you can address it with a scotch-brite maroon on a surface plate
    2. 18inches long for a no.8 is ok
    3. If that's not sufficient, choose sandpaper between 400 to 600, remove just the blade and work it
    holding it from the body and not the handles, then flip it front to back to balance the pressure. Don't try to remove the scratches, just
    the burrs, otherwise it can go out of square. Then scotch brite it.
    4. As you're there, work the corners tilting the plane.
    5. Otherwise just wait that the wood itself softens out the burrs

    Anyway I'm very clean and I risk worsening my obsessive compulsive disorder if I go further

    Thank you so much for your support guys

  8. #8
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    If you had previously sanded the wood before finishing or before you had the plane to use that would explain the scratches.
    beech isnít a open grain wood like oaks are but itís a surprise how sanding grit will get stuck in wood.
    Good Luck
    Aj

  9. #9
    Thank you Andrew for awaring me of the risks hidden in coupling sanding and planing. I'm pretty sure I'll never forget this lesson. My previously "smooth like a baby skin" jointer is starting to scrape its knees

  10. #10
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    Haitham,

    If the wax you used is some combination of hard natural waxes like carnauba wax with some things like bees wax and linseed oil, etc., acetone probably won't take it off very well, should you decide to go that route. Given time it may do the job, but depending on the composition of the wax, there may be better choices.

    Carnauba wax will come off with an ammonia solution fairly well.

    Things like bees wax and petroleum wax will come off better with solvents that have something like toluene in them. Toluene is not very healthy stuff to deal with, however. Solvents like mineral spirits or paint thinner should work for those types of waxes, but far more slowly than solvents with relatively high toluene content.

    Xylenes should also work fairly well if the wax you use has a lot of the bees wax and petroleum wax present in them, but because of its higher molecular weight than toluene, it will evaporate more slowly. However, like toluene, you don't want to get it on your skin or breath the vapors, as it is not a bargain health wise.

    Stew
    Last edited by Stew Denton; 02-06-2023 at 11:47 PM.

  11. #11
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    If a piece of wood is dirty or suspected of being sanded, my first step is to go over it with a wire brush to knock the dirt and grit off as much as possible.

    This is also where some of my "beater" tools come in. A light cross grain planing to make a clean board can pay off big time. Keep an eye out for a cheap plane from a #3 to a #5 for this kind of work.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  12. #12
    Thanks to everyone, this is a great place full of people willing to help. Thanks for all the suggestions again.
    @Stew: thanks for all the information about the products. Alphie Shine wax is a hard wax all natural no solvents, with carnauba, beeswax, copal, myrrh etc.
    @koepke: I have a couple of old planes in working order, I will use them next time and traverse the grain

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