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Thread: Maybe shopping for a new DC

  1. #1

    Maybe shopping for a new DC

    Hi, all.

    Haven't been on the Creek for a while, due to events o' life (parents passed, renovating Mom's cabin during probate, granddaughter growing, moving mother-in-law out of AZ, supporting father-in-law through heart transplant, last daughter off to college, TBI treatment for yours truly interrupted by having a small stroke... just lots of life happening). Anyway, it's back to commissioning the new shop, lest it age into the old shop before I get to put any miles on it.

    One unpleasant revelation of my recent medical adventures, which included a chest x-ray, is that a substantial amount of the real estate in my lungs isn't properly considered "lung" anymore. Not a total surprise, given foreign matter damage from overseas military adventuring and bone-intrusive lung collapse from failed motorcycle stunt riding, but it's more extensive than I'd realized. I need to husband my remaining lung material. Since I don't want to give up shop time, I want to refine my dust collection protocols.

    I'm currently running my main collection through a trash can separator to a 1.5 hp-rated Delta 50-850 single-stage DC with one filter bag (has two inlets and is at least 15 years old). The inlets are manually gated. I haven't had a perma-pipe rig for three houses back, so currently everything runs through four-inch corrugated hose. Machinery hooked to collection is fairly typical dilettante fare: 3 hp table saw, 15-in heavy planer, 6-in jointer, 20-in. bandsaw, and a 6-in. belt/12-in. disk sander that only collects (badly) from the belt side.

    I use a Festool shop vac for my old Hitachi miter saw, which doesn't collect well, for my cheapie spindle sander, which does alright, and for my Festool gizmos, most of which collect impressively. I don't use chip 'n' chunk collection on the mortiser or at the lathe, although I'm not against it on principle.

    Additionally, I run an overhead JET shop filter, more for peace of mind than from any noticeable air quality benefit.

    The trash can does a solid job of drawing off chips and a decent job of letting dust drop in. Pretty Wife is pleased to get the mulch from non-walnut stock. I don't think it's ever sealed all that well, despite my occasional fiddling with it, but it's certainly given good value over the years.

    The DC bag fills up fastest when I use the table saw, as that has a direct line in. Everything else has a migrating hose off the mulch can, so I don't have to change it often, although it's a PITA when I do. Cleaning the upper felt "gag bag" feels like self-abuse: no matter what mask I wear, I seem to inhale sneezeloads of fine, lung-clotting dust. That's probably not greatly better than tolerating ambient dust in the shop, wearing a paper mask and just trying to remember to breathe through my nose. I need a better solution, if only so I can feel less foolish about things.

    I'd like to builld a fairly permanent solution into THIS shop, because I really like the place. It's 599 s.f. of high ceilings, natural light, shiplap walls, great access, and a bunch of my better ideas... and I'm just now, finally, getting moved in. I thought this would be the last shop I'd fit out, and I was fine with that. But, no.

    Now it looks like we're moving to a bigger place, on a bit more land, somewhere a bit further out of town, to facilitate a compound living arrangement with my mother-in-law (a most excellent woman). That being the case, everything here has become temporary again.

    An additional variable is that I've now inherited a chunk of money. Not go-crazy dough, by any means -- I won't be buying a Montana ranch, a shiny hot rod, or a big combo machine to simplify my floor layout -- but last night my sweetie took hold of both my shoulders and bluntly explained that it would probably be okay to spend some of that money to prolong life enjoyment.

    Well... okay, then.

    I see three basic COAs here (which means there are probably 20 or more):

    1. Hop up my current rig with a Wynn canister and a Super Dust Deputy or similar accessories, and drive on with that as an interim, or indefinite, solution. Cost guesstimate around 600 bucks, or about the actual replacement value on Craigslist.

    2. Go whole hawg on some better rig, possibly a rollaway cyclone by Oneida or Laguna or (if I feel like throwing currency through a turbine) maybe even a Felder cabinet. Guesstimate somewhere between $2,600-$6,000. Suggestions, warnings, and avuncular scoldings welcomed. There's currently a single-phase Felder lurking on CL for $4,300, if a guy were to rent a truck for the day...

    3. Buy nothing but another fitting or two, shut up; go set up my shop and get back to improving my mistakes.

    What might YOU do? For perspective, my shop is used for home built-ins, furniture, gifts, and (primarily) personal therapy. I'm not a pro, and (like a lot of guys my age) I'm a little stove up.

    Cheers,

    Jack
    --Jack S. Llewyllson

    Gratitude is a gift to yourself.

    Purity tests are the bane of human existence.

    Codeine takes the pain from every muscle but the heart.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
    Posts
    63,170
    Sad for your loss and subsequent upheaval with your health, but it sounds like there are some nice positives happening, too.

    I recently bought the Harvey G700 and couldn't be happier. It can be used as a roll-around or installed with fixed ductwork and it very nice for the money for a one-person shop. Filtration is excellent as is separation. The bin is smaller, but very easy to manage. I's also very reasonably priced with a typical sale price of between $2500 and $2800 depending on the "phase of the moon" and timing of your clicking.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Helensburgh, Australia
    Posts
    2,546
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Llewyllson View Post
    Hi, all.

    Haven't been on the Creek for a while, due to events o' life (parents passed, renovating Mom's cabin during probate, granddaughter growing, moving mother-in-law out of AZ, supporting father-in-law through heart transplant, last daughter off to college, TBI treatment for yours truly interrupted by having a small stroke... just lots of life happening). Anyway, it's back to commissioning the new shop, lest it age into the old shop before I get to put any miles on it.

    One unpleasant revelation of my recent medical adventures, which included a chest x-ray, is that a substantial amount of the real estate in my lungs isn't properly considered "lung" anymore. Not a total surprise, given foreign matter damage from overseas military adventuring and bone-intrusive lung collapse from failed motorcycle stunt riding, but it's more extensive than I'd realized. I need to husband my remaining lung material. Since I don't want to give up shop time, I want to refine my dust collection protocols.

    I'm currently running my main collection through a trash can separator to a 1.5 hp-rated Delta 50-850 single-stage DC with one filter bag (has two inlets and is at least 15 years old). The inlets are manually gated. I haven't had a perma-pipe rig for three houses back, so currently everything runs through four-inch corrugated hose. Machinery hooked to collection is fairly typical dilettante fare: 3 hp table saw, 15-in heavy planer, 6-in jointer, 20-in. bandsaw, and a 6-in. belt/12-in. disk sander that only collects (badly) from the belt side.

    I use a Festool shop vac for my old Hitachi miter saw, which doesn't collect well, for my cheapie spindle sander, which does alright, and for my Festool gizmos, most of which collect impressively. I don't use chip 'n' chunk collection on the mortiser or at the lathe, although I'm not against it on principle.

    Additionally, I run an overhead JET shop filter, more for peace of mind than from any noticeable air quality benefit.

    The trash can does a solid job of drawing off chips and a decent job of letting dust drop in. Pretty Wife is pleased to get the mulch from non-walnut stock. I don't think it's ever sealed all that well, despite my occasional fiddling with it, but it's certainly given good value over the years.

    The DC bag fills up fastest when I use the table saw, as that has a direct line in. Everything else has a migrating hose off the mulch can, so I don't have to change it often, although it's a PITA when I do. Cleaning the upper felt "gag bag" feels like self-abuse: no matter what mask I wear, I seem to inhale sneezeloads of fine, lung-clotting dust. That's probably not greatly better than tolerating ambient dust in the shop, wearing a paper mask and just trying to remember to breathe through my nose. I need a better solution, if only so I can feel less foolish about things.

    I'd like to builld a fairly permanent solution into THIS shop, because I really like the place. It's 599 s.f. of high ceilings, natural light, shiplap walls, great access, and a bunch of my better ideas... and I'm just now, finally, getting moved in. I thought this would be the last shop I'd fit out, and I was fine with that. But, no.

    Now it looks like we're moving to a bigger place, on a bit more land, somewhere a bit further out of town, to facilitate a compound living arrangement with my mother-in-law (a most excellent woman). That being the case, everything here has become temporary again.

    An additional variable is that I've now inherited a chunk of money. Not go-crazy dough, by any means -- I won't be buying a Montana ranch, a shiny hot rod, or a big combo machine to simplify my floor layout -- but last night my sweetie took hold of both my shoulders and bluntly explained that it would probably be okay to spend some of that money to prolong life enjoyment.

    Well... okay, then.

    I see three basic COAs here (which means there are probably 20 or more):

    1. Hop up my current rig with a Wynn canister and a Super Dust Deputy or similar accessories, and drive on with that as an interim, or indefinite, solution. Cost guesstimate around 600 bucks, or about the actual replacement value on Craigslist.

    2. Go whole hawg on some better rig, possibly a rollaway cyclone by Oneida or Laguna or (if I feel like throwing currency through a turbine) maybe even a Felder cabinet. Guesstimate somewhere between $2,600-$6,000. Suggestions, warnings, and avuncular scoldings welcomed. There's currently a single-phase Felder lurking on CL for $4,300, if a guy were to rent a truck for the day...

    3. Buy nothing but another fitting or two, shut up; go set up my shop and get back to improving my mistakes.

    What might YOU do? For perspective, my shop is used for home built-ins, furniture, gifts, and (primarily) personal therapy. I'm not a pro, and (like a lot of guys my age) I'm a little stove up.

    Cheers,

    Jack
    Ask yourself how much you are prepared to spend to protect your remaining lung function, it is like crash helmets, what is your head worth. The gold standard for DE for a hobbyist is Oneida or Clearvue with a 15" impeller, less gets you less and air filters only capture the dust already in the air that you are now breathing. Think about it, long and hard.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Modesto, CA, USA
    Posts
    8,389
    I see good brand name cyclone dc on search tempest all the time for about 1/2-2/3 of new price. Often with pipe thrown in. The only real wear on a dc is the bearings. I would not hesitate to buy a used dc. Probably want to upgrade whatever filter it comes with anyway.
    BilL D

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2022
    Location
    Tracy, CA
    Posts
    310
    I went from a 1.5HP single stage Jet dust collector to a permanent duct 5HP Clearvue cyclone and the difference was significant. With a speed control on the Clearvue, it actually sucked more air at 40 Hz motor speed than the 1.5HP Jet did going full blown. At 60Hz full speed, I can use two different machines at the same time.

    That being said....

    1. You are not going to get good dust collection with the miter saw unless you change to a different miter saw like the Festool Kapex (or Makita does okay but not as good as Kapex) -- or if you build a fully enclosed miter station and connect a high power 5HP dust collector (see Jay Bates videos on his shop for reference).
    2. I would consider selling your belt/disc sander and getting a different model which has better dust collection. While expensive, the Jet JSG-6 model can be modified to have very good dust collection:

    JGG-6-dust-port.jpg


    Sanding machines are going to cause you the most lung problem because the sanding dust is so fine that it floats in the air. The saw/planer/jointer stuff will still produce dust, but it is generally heavier and tends to fall quickly. That's not to say that saw/planer dust is safe - you should still do adequate dust collection here.

    ------
    Based on your comments, it seems like you want a somewhat mobile/movable dust collector (i.e. a permanent duct solution is not going to happen here). That's fine. I have another thread that documents a VFD variable speed Pentz EF5 build with permanent duct - that was about a $8-9k investment total.

    The decision is really up to you. Based on what I know, I would definitely upgrade the dust collection system if you have the budget for it. The Oneida Air mobile "rollaway" cyclones are not going to be that much better than what you have, so if you want the cheapest upgrade, it is likely going to be the Harvey G-700. These are great machines and they also have a variable speed control as "stock" option.

    If you are willing to spend more for a mobile rollaway cyclone, you might look at the Powermatic models (they are better than the Laguna models, which seem to have reliability and support issues). These also can be used with your standard 4" dust hoses (they have three 4" intake ports). They also have huge 63 gallon drums.

    Powermatic PM2205 - 5HP - 16.6" impeller - probably about $6200 including shipping and tax

    Powermatic PM2200 - 3HP - 15.8" impeller - about $4500 including shipping and tax from Woodcraft (has the best shipping costs)

    You could go for the cheaper JET rollaway cyclone, but it has a smaller impeller. It's still much better than your 1.5HP though.


    The Felder dust collectors can be very nice, but you need to clean the filters frequently (they work sort of like a giant shop vac with an internal filter before the suction turbine). The Felder do have auto-cleaning models, but they require massive amounts of compressed air (think 5 to 7.5HP air compressor).
    Last edited by Aaron Inami; 01-28-2023 at 2:17 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    883
    A couple of suggestions:
    1) Take a look at the offerings from Grizzly. I've got a 1.5 HP cyclone from them that has been discontinued, but gives excellent value. You'll likely save money over the Clearvue and Oneida alternatives. I could not look at their single stage collectors, Harbor Freight has the best bang/buck there, but they do have some portable cyclones. Depending on the new shop, maybe it's time for a stationary model?

    2) Think about venting whatever you get outside the shop instead of running the air through a filter. It's going to be the best from an air quality perspective. I do this with a 1000 CFM cyclone in a semi-heated garage and I don't notice much drop in the air temperature.

    3) Use a N95/P100 painters mask, instead of a cloth or disposable mask when emptying the bag. 3m makes some pretty comfortable ones that are relatively cheap. Anything less than this is likely not going to stop the super fine dust that causes issues. Do this now, it's cheap, and it matters. It's also going to be your best solution to dust anyway.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    NW Indiana
    Posts
    2,918
    I have a 5 hp DC and very happy with the performance. In the future, when I downsize, I will look at the Oneida Super cell system.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Tampa Bay, FL
    Posts
    3,460
    OK. Putting on the Dr. and woodworker hats here for a minute. Preserving your lung function is priority 1,2,3,... for you for your setup. Lots of great advice above. Seen too many patients with terrible lung disease. It's a tough life.

    You need to attack this problem in a multifactorial fashion.

    1.) Get the best dust collector that's in your budget. Then overspend a little. This really matters. I have the 5HP Oneida - the Harvey is certainly a great option. Then plumb it well to your devices. The one you have is not remotely up to the task for what you need. I wouldn't modify it with a canister (I've done that in the past, then threw it out). Buy a cyclone.

    2.) Replace your filter on your Jet air filter with a MERV 13 or better filter. And clean/replace them often. Two overhead air filters circulating in a laminar/circular fashion in your workshop is better than one. But, noisier. Wear good earmuffs. Hearing protection is very important too. Lot of good posts here regarding dust collection. Time to read up. This will help a lot.

    3.) If you are not wearing one when you work in the shop, buy a really good mask ventilator. I'm partial to the 3M with P100 filters. PAPR is overkill and very expensive. I wouldn't go that route.

    4.) Buy a particle meter and wear the ventilator when the reading is over ambient for your home. Always.

    5.) If you can vent outside, that is very effective, but I'm not sure that your climate in Washington would make that practical.

    6.) Probably losing that disc sander and getting one with better dust collection (and probably needing to modify it more) is a good idea. I'm not sure any of them have great dust collection, but sanding really puts out the worst dust to inhale.

    7.) Your miter saw can be modified with an enclosure and improve its dust collection significantly. I have a Kapex, and still need to do this. Its dust collection is still pretty poor, IMHO. Lots of posts and I'm sure videos online showing this.

    I'm sure lots of others will chime in here with great suggestions.

    Good luck, and sorry to hear of all of your personal/family issues. Hang in there. You have all our best wishes.
    - ďItís not that Iím so smart, itís just that I stay with problems longer.Ē Ė Albert Einstein
    - Welcome to Florida. Where the old folks visit their parents

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    2,824
    I recommend you look into positive air pressure masks. I have the Trend Airshield Pro which I use quite bit when I do dusty things like sanding and changing the bag out on the DC. I do not recommend the Trend Airshield though, as it has the battery and air pump in the top of the helmet, which makes it top heavy and a bit awkward. There are other brands now but they can be a bit pricey. But given your condition, it is probably worth it.

    IMHO, that Jet air cleaner is doing more than you think it is. I have one and it does an excellent job. You may want to get a second and arrange them so that they move air around your shop to get better filtration.
    Brian

    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger or more complicated...it takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." - E.F. Schumacher

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2005
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    599 sf makes a nice sized shop. Like any of your main stationary tools, a dust collection system is an investment. So do it right, once. I did ten years ago and never regretted it. It was a great fun build that gets used every time I fire up a machine. I went with a 2 hp Oneida Dust Gorilla with a 7" 26 ga snap lock steel duct main trunk. Doing it over, only change I would make is to go a bit bigger and get a 3 hp Oneida.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Ole Anderson; 01-28-2023 at 10:05 AM.
    NOW you tell me...

  11. #11
    For my new workshop I bought the Harvey G800, but only because it has self cleaning filters. The G700 has some manual cleaning that I donít know about. The G800 is way more expensive and way more than I need, but Iím very happy with it. It amazingly quiet, like donít have to speak up even when standing next to it. It has a lot of pull, not sure how to compare, but it is definitely overkill for a one man hobby shop.

    While it is portable, itís still 240V, which means itís only portable as far as the cord goes.

    Iím still setting up, but Iíll be posting videos of it on all my tools in a month or two.

    Honestly, the G700 is a better deal, but the G800 has self cleaning filters! Who can put a price on that convenience, oh yeah, Harvey can .

  12. #12
    Love your writing style. Your wife is a keeper. Dust collection can be a hobby all by itself. I personally reside in the dust collection rabbit hole.

    A dust collection system is different from most woodworking tools. Even if you are more inclined to buy as opposed to build your system, the woodworker has to design a significant part of the system, the ductwork. You may also have to add or enlarge ports to get the level of dust collection to your desired level at the tool. The opportunities to DIY are endless. Balancing budget versus performance is a very personal decision. Unlike audio equipment, you can spend a lot of money and time and see measureable improvement for each increment. That is the addictive part. Spending some time learning about designing a system so that your system works when built is time well spent.

    Some things to take a look at.

    Buy a particle counter, e.g. Dylos 1100 Pro, and an anemometer, e.g. Testo 405i, so you will know what you are dealing with. The particle counter is more important. The anemometer is for evaluating air velocity around the tool to see if modifications of shrouds and hoods are needed/working. Air velocity in the ductwork is worthwhile to know but is hard to measure. The Testo anemometerís range is too low to measure duct air velocity in a good dust collection.

    Get a mask that has exhaust valves so your safety glasses/goggles do not fog up. Most DC systems do not keep ambient dust levels low enough to go maskless.

    A variable speed motor allows good collection over a much wider range of port sizes. Oneida and Harvey offer them today.

    A Rousseau miter saw hood is a ready made solution for your miter saw. It is easy to install if the saw is mounted in a stand.
    Let me know what you do on the sander. I have the same problem.
    Last edited by Thomas Wilson; 01-28-2023 at 11:29 AM.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2022
    Location
    Tracy, CA
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    Looks like Harvey put their G-700 down to $2549 for a couple of days.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    E TN, near Knoxville
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    12,301
    Jack, what I did.

    Are you a do-it-yourself type? When I build my shop I bought A 5 HP Clearvue kit, built a sound-insulating closet for it plus a big noisy air compressor, and ran 6” PVC S&D pipe above the ceiling to drops to the machines. I hang several remote start keyfobs positioned around the shop. I bought a Dylos air quality monitor to see how it was working. The system is amazing and catches almost all fine dust, even from a 22-44 drum sander. The suction is incredible, even at the end of 50’ runs with some angles. A Clearvue video used to show a demonstration where it sucked up a 30’ measuring tape and dropped it into the bin. I’d fear for my cat if he got too close.

    (The Clearvue is LOUD!! The closet really cuts down on the noise, to the point where I can hear a whisper just outside the closet.)

    I also have a Jet air cleaner. In my experience it’s good for clearing out any fine dust in the air when I leave the shop for a couple of hours. I used it often in my previous shop without good dust collection. It’s not efficient at removing dust while working.

    The cyclone picks up almost all dust with some operations I do, such as at the bandsaw. Others, such as at the lathe, not as much, depending.

    Above all, I’m a believer in wearing a good respirator, not a simple dust mask. I have a bunch of the 3M half-face mask industrial respirators and use them to compliment the cyclone for some operations. I use dual p100 filters on these. My favorite respirators are the 3M 7000 series due to their design and improved materials.

    I also keep a couple of 3M full face industrial respirators, also with dual P100 filters. I use around especially dusty things such a power sanding away from the DC and SCMS with no dust collection.

    I had a powered Trend full face shield but it didn’t filter nearly as well as the 3M half-mask respirators.

    You are smart to be headed down this path. Some never do and some pay for it dearly. So far I’ve known three people who had to give up woodworking/turning because of lung issues, two from breathing fine dust and one from that plus slowly becoming sensitized to the dust causing severe allergic reactions. That guy could no longer step into his emptied and professionally cleaned shop and had to sell his house and move.

    Note: I’ve had asthma and other lung issues for well over a half century and sensitivity to certain woods. With the cyclone and respirators I have no issues.

    JKJ

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Western PA
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    1,194
    I have a 3hp cyclone with an after-market wynn cannister. It does a fair job at keeping my shop clean, but i wouldnt bet my lungs on it. Frankly, i dont know that any dust collection system would satisfy your needs. You might be better off going with a more basic DC system, and purchasing a PAPR. A respirator is the almost fail-safe method of preventing junk in your lungs. Its also the more cumbersome and uncomfortable solution. I am 35 and started woodworking 10-11 years ago. For the first year I had almost no DC. I shudder when i think about the unmitigated dust i breathed in every weekend for the first 3-6 months. However, i quickly wised up due to online forums like this one and wore a 3M half mask for a few years, then a full face 3M respirator, then i stopped wearing a respirator for 1-2 years, and now i have a 3M versaflo. Ive had the versaflo for 2 years now, and it is an amazing system. It is kind of a pain to wear a helmet with a hose coming out of it, but it is infinitely more comfortable than the unpowered half/full respirator. In the summer i found them to be insufferably uncomfortable, sweaty, and hot. More importantly, the PAPR systems are an almost bulletproof means of filtration. An improperly fitting respirator could allow unfiltered air into your lungs. I have festool/mafell portable tools, festool extractor, JDS air cleaner with wynn filter, and i just dont think a DC system exists that truly protects you 100%. If you have perfect lungs to start with, then i think a pentz style system with an air cleaner would suffice. Unfortunately, it sounds like that isnt an option for you, which is why i think a PAPR is the right way to go. It sucks to spend money on filtration over tools, but the consequences can be horrible when corners are cut. Bill himself is a horrible/unusual example of that. Better to forgo the latest track saw and get a respirator versus risk not being able to woodwork at all.

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