5 x 10 CNC's with upgrade possibility to auto tool changer

[Michael Burnside]

I love my ShopSabre, but I'm an advanced hobbyist so justifying an ATC after opting for other goodies like a vacuum table wasn't in the cards. Having said that, I felt I was making a serious investment so I bought something made in the US to ensure I have long term support. ShopSabre and CAMaster use WinCNC controllers. WinCNC is a 3rd party CNC controller company that is widely supported (Vectric/Autodesk/Enroute/Optiscout/etc.), robust and, again, local. I looked long and hard before making a serious investment and it came down to the two aforementioned manufacturers for me. They weren't the least expensive, but I feel, for me, they were the two best choices.

There is also Phantom CNC, which have what look like great machines at a lesser price and a few compromises (IMHO), but they may fit your needs as well.

[Jim Becker]

ShopSabre and CAMaster use WinCNC controllers. WinCNC is a 3rd party CNC controller company that is widely supported (Vectric/Autodesk/Enroute/Optiscout/etc.), robust and, again, local.

Camaster still uses WinCNC on the three Stinger lines (I, II, and III) but has moved to Smartcore CNC Control from Yaskawa for the Panther and Cobra lines. It's a more robust industrial controller, but I don't know much about it. AFAIK, there's no issues using all the common CAD/CAM software with that system.

[andrew whicker]

What Kevin said...Fusion 360 can be fully CAD/CAM capable with many modern machines. There just has to be post processor support and that generally comes from the CNC machine manufacturer as it's specific to the controller software and the machine configuration. Note you will want the F360 paid commercial version to support the features you'll likely want/need with a big machine.

Now if you'll be doing cabinetry type work, either F360 or Vectric products are the best choice there other than for one-off type projects. There are excellent cabinet production specific CAD/CAM applications that are much more efficient and keyed to that job. Mosaic is an example of the same.

I have a lot to consider. I have a basic license w/ F360, but the additional part of F360 that supports nesting and CAM is a big price increase on top of my basic license cost. I will definitely have to consider that aspect as well. And the learning curve. The learning curve and tooling is going to be costly.

[Jim Becker]

Andrew, what do you plan on using the CNC for in your operation? That has a lot of impact both on hardware and software needs as you've probably started to see!

[Matthew Joseph Rogers]

I ordered a Chinese CNC machine 5'x10' with ATC, vac table, pneumatic rollers, Yaskawa, etc brand new for just over $15K ($19K on the boat shipped and probably closer to $22k in my shop with port fees (estimated)). But I also upgraded the model from the base specs and could have easily gotten the price close to $15k. If you purchase a used CNC from across the country, you are also going to be paying several thousand to get it shipped at least, so a $15k machine will also end up closer to 20k when you get it to your location.

[andrew whicker]

Andrew, what do you plan on using the CNC for in your operation? That has a lot of impact both on hardware and software needs as you've probably started to see!

If I get the job, it would pretty simple stuff. Akin to cabinetry carcasses (without any dowel holes), but in this specific case, with OSB. So it would really be perfect for learning.

[Bill George]

If I get the job, it would pretty simple stuff. Akin to cabinetry carcasses (without any dowel holes), but in this specific case, with OSB. So it would really be perfect for learning.

Please buy something with some USA support and users here can also help support. My big regret is that years ago when I was buying I did not get the Cam Master instead of the startup one I did get. Its long gone now and I lost tons of money when I sold the one I had even as it worked great. Zero resale.

[Jim Becker]

If I get the job, it would pretty simple stuff. Akin to cabinetry carcasses (without any dowel holes), but in this specific case, with OSB. So it would really be perfect for learning.

Since your plan is to go to the large 5x10 format, it should handle that and a lot more very easily. "What" software is still the question, but cabinetry-like and possibly cabinetry will point toward software optimized for that kind of thing because it can substantially speed up job prep and cutting. Cabinetry focused software takes your specifications and "does the drawing" for you, for the most part, once you have your standards defined. Diving into CAD/CAM for other types of projects can happen, too, so there is the potential of learning more than one application over time.

[Michael Burnside]

You don’t need 5x10 to do serious cabinetry. A quality 4x8 will do the job well. If you want it, great, but you don’t need it and if budget is a concern that’s the first compromise I’d personally make. Things like vacuum, pin locators for fast loading and repeat production cuts, options to add ATC later, etc is what I would consider.

I’d call CAMaster, ShopSabre, Phantom and Shopbot people a call and get some ideas/options.

I know of a few people using KCD software specifically for cabinetry design. If you’re just starting out and don’t need a fast, full production workflow yet, then Vectric Vcarve Pro is fine. I designed a custom 7’x3’ dresser in vcarve.

[Michael Burnside]

I ordered a Chinese CNC machine 5'x10' with ATC, vac table, pneumatic rollers, Yaskawa, etc brand new for just over $15K ($19K on the boat shipped and probably closer to $22k in my shop with port fees (estimated)). But I also upgraded the model from the base specs and could have easily gotten the price close to $15k. If you purchase a used CNC from across the country, you are also going to be paying several thousand to get it shipped at least, so a $15k machine will also end up closer to 20k when you get it to your location.

7K or roughly 30% above actual cost just to get it to you? Do you have a link to share of the manufacturer?

I paid 1600 to have mine delivered across the country from Minnesota and 250 for a forklift. Seemed reasonable for an insanely robust, heavy steel frame and gantry.

[andrew whicker]

I made some shipping calls. These machines aren't heavy to trucking companies. It's relatively cheap to transport them. I got a quote of ~2k to move it inside my shop though.

[Kevin Jenness]

If I get the job, it would pretty simple stuff. Akin to cabinetry carcasses (without any dowel holes), but in this specific case, with OSB. So it would really be perfect for learning.

It sounds as though investing in a production cnc unit is dependent on scoring one big contract. Do you have other prospects that would support the purchase?

Be careful about scheduling work dependent on a new, unfamiliar process and equipment. It will take some time to get familiar with the system and work out any bugs. Support is really important early on, both for hard and software. A Chinese or used machine might be a bargain for someone with cnc experience, or it could be a nightmare for a novice.

You might need to pay a rigger $$ to get a machine into your building, but look into picking it up at the freight depot and moving it home with a rollback truck or dropdeck trailer, or a flatbed if you have a forklift. I've moved heavy machines with tractors, backhoes and excavators using slings, plus dollies and rollers once on the floor.

For production work make sure you have material handling covered, including receiving material, loading and offloading the machine and shipping finished work.

[Bill George]

7K or roughly 30% above actual cost just to get it to you? Do you have a link to share of the manufacturer?

I paid 1600 to have mine delivered across the country from Minnesota and 250 for a forklift. Seemed reasonable for an insanely robust, heavy steel frame and gantry.

Well the Tariff is 19% plus customs and then he has to pay trucking to his freight company dock and then a local delivery fee and pay for a rigger to unload. I don't know who is going to do the assy and setup. Warranty issues all back to China, he will need to send videos to prove the issue. Then of course the control software getting it installed and working, once again no USA support. I am having a big issue now with a Chinese vender that sells through Amazon!

[andrew whicker]

Not at the moment. I am getting more connected to the area and I know there are opportunities once the machine exists. But, honestly, I'm not sure how likely it is to get this contract (probably fairly low) so I'm only putting in as much energy as I can afford.

Yes, material handling will tough. There's a lot to consider. My lot is great, but the building itself leaves a lot to be desired (height and small garage door). It's the same difficult nut to crack that most small businesses face I imagine. What to work around, what to perfect, where to invest, etc?

I would like to put in some wide double doors or garage door that opens right into space the CNC is located for material loading. It's never going to be perfect with my current set up.

And, yes, it is possible to get a smaller unit (4x8), but I figure the extra sq footage isn't too expensive once you are already buying a CNC. So if you have the space... might as well go for the extra sq footage.

[Jim Becker]

The advantage to the 5x10 is the ability to use the wider material when that's appropriate and some commercial work does indeed benefit from the 10' length.