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Thread: 5 x 10 CNC's with upgrade possibility to auto tool changer

  1. #1
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    5 x 10 CNC's with upgrade possibility to auto tool changer

    Hi,

    I can consistently find 5 x 10 cnc routers for sale used around 15k, but none of them have auto tool changing capability. I can also google around and find NEW machines that have auto tool changing that are 100k +

    My question is if there is a good base model that I could buy now w/o the tool changer and upgrade later when I had the funding. I am just now starting to learn about CNC's. I don't know much about software, hardware and the heads. However, most of these machines that are 20k or less (used) seem to be machines that can NOT be upgraded later.

    Is there something I should look for when looking at used machinery that immediately gives me an idea of whether a tool changer could be added or not? Or is it pretty rare that a machine would have the capability, but never be upgraded?

  2. #2
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    Adding a tool changer is not trivial, unfortunately. It's a combination of hardware (including a new spindle) and software to make it work and the latter is the critical part. Costly, for sure. You might have a conversation with Gary Campbell to get his thoughts on this as he's added tool changes to some machines during his career.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  3. #3
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    I actually did a little more digging and found some used models for sale around 30k w/ tool changer. Honestly, that's not bad.

    https://theequipmenthub.com/product/...c-vacuum-pump/

  4. #4
    If you have the business to justify a tool changer, finance it and get it up front. Retrofitting one would be a stretch. Used machines can be a good investment, but make sure that you get one that will do what you need, isn't clapped out and has factory support available. Jim's suggestion to consult with Gary Campbell is well worth following. You can learn a lot about the general subject by looking through the archives at the Camheads, Shopbot and cnczone sites. There is a lot to absorb before you choose a machine and more when you start to run it.

  5. #5
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    Support is pretty important and that's not just from the manufacturer, but also for whatever software is used on the machine. You cannot afford to be incompatible with applications that you'll use for CAD/CAM, especially for post processing so that your files can actually run on the machine. Be really careful about not getting hooked on a proprietary system, especially and older one.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  6. #6
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    I was going to share the post but can't find it at the moment. However there was a Legacy 4x8 with indexing lathe for 18K in California. It I believe had an ATC as well. Said they were selling because of getting larger machine.
    Found it. No ATC but what appears to be their version of CAMaster's Fast Tool Change. You would have to join this FB group to view it. If the link isn't allowed please remove Moderators.

    Everything USED Woodworking Tools & Equipment For Sale or Trade | Legacy woodworking CNC | Facebook
    Last edited by Ronald Blue; 01-21-2023 at 4:04 PM.

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    Do any of the Stepcraft models fit your criteria? They have ATC on some of the lower priced models.

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    theirs a saying i wish would of followed... buy your second cnc first....

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    Support is pretty important and that's not just from the manufacturer, but also for whatever software is used on the machine. You cannot afford to be incompatible with applications that you'll use for CAD/CAM, especially for post processing so that your files can actually run on the machine. Be really careful about not getting hooked on a proprietary system, especially and older one.
    Yeah, there was an interesting mid 90's one for sale, but I was thinking the same thing. Good chance it runs on something local and doesn't accept DXF's.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by andrew whicker View Post
    Yeah, there was an interesting mid 90's one for sale, but I was thinking the same thing. Good chance it runs on something local and doesn't accept DXF's.
    You might find a mechanically solid router from that era but you need a system that works together as a system with available support. Spindle, controllers, pneumatics, CAD/CAM, post processor, etc. It doesn't even make sense to say "doesn't accept DXFs", as if you could just upload a drawing file and have the router spit out parts. Any CAD/CAM program will work with dxf files, but translating them into toolpaths that will work on your machine is just one (indispensable) part of the system.

    If you haven't seen it, look up this thread by Gary Campbell.

    Buying a CNC? Do Your Homework!!


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    Thanks I'll read it!

    A long time ago I worked at a machine shop with a cnc water jet that required the operator to draw the shapes in the local cad system. That's what I was referring to. But maybe that never happens anymore. 🙂

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    Oh, you'll be drawing plenty in the CAD/CAM system you choose (or are able) to use with any machine you buy...even if you acquire files from someone, you still need to tweak them to work well with your machine environment and tooling. Importing DXF is not an issue with modern CAD/CAM software as has been mentioned. But it's not the end product and you cannot cut directly from it.
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    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

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    I understand that much. I just mean that in my specific example the CAD software was so old that only that specific machine had the software to draw. So the operator re-drew everything in some oddball CAD software local to the machine using our PDF's created on Autocad.

    Anywho... I don't plan on buying anything that doesn't have on going licensing / support. I use Fusion 360 so I'll be making the DXF's on that software. I have friends that have a CNC and their path creation software looks complicated to me, but I'm not sure how to compare it to other software. Maybe it all is complicated when you first start using it.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by andrew whicker View Post
    I understand that much. I just mean that in my specific example the CAD software was so old that only that specific machine had the software to draw. So the operator re-drew everything in some oddball CAD software local to the machine using our PDF's created on Autocad.

    Anywho... I don't plan on buying anything that doesn't have on going licensing / support. I use Fusion 360 so I'll be making the DXF's on that software. I have friends that have a CNC and their path creation software looks complicated to me, but I'm not sure how to compare it to other software. Maybe it all is complicated when you first start using it.
    You can draw and generate toolpaths within Fusion 360. If you're already proficient in drawing with that program it probably makes sense to stay with it as long as they offer a post processor for the machine you get. Another good cad/cam vendor is Vectrics. Their VCarve Pro is quite capable and they have extensive tutorials available to shorten the learning curve as well as an active forum. I suspect Vectrics has a larger user base in cnc routing than Fusion, which may be a relevant factor.
    Last edited by Kevin Jenness; 01-22-2023 at 10:58 PM.

  15. #15
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    What Kevin said...Fusion 360 can be fully CAD/CAM capable with many modern machines. There just has to be post processor support and that generally comes from the CNC machine manufacturer as it's specific to the controller software and the machine configuration. Note you will want the F360 paid commercial version to support the features you'll likely want/need with a big machine.

    Now if you'll be doing cabinetry type work, either F360 or Vectric products are the best choice there other than for one-off type projects. There are excellent cabinet production specific CAD/CAM applications that are much more efficient and keyed to that job. Mosaic is an example of the same.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

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