Originally Posted by Warren Mickley
Wow. Do you use a kanaban to flatten the back side?
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Wow. Do you use a kanaban to flatten the back side?
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To throw in a bit more detail, the idea is to evenly use the entire face of the stone. Although it seems rather self-evident, the more evenly you wear the stone, the longer it stays flat and the less abrasive one will waste through flattening—hence, as Warren said, more economical. I’m still working on developing my judgement and technique for extremely even wear across the face, but improving as time goes on. I still need to flatten my water stones more often than Warren (quite a bit more often—maybe 100 sharpenings, if that, before needing to flatten my 1k grit stone, with “need” judged by what the following stones do), but certainly not as often as I needed to as a beginner.
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I freehand most of the time. I do own jigs, an original Eclipse and a Mark II. I don’t use them often.No mater what the stone I try to use the whole stone. My question is Wouldn’t it make sense that a jig would tend to hollow a stone because the wheel is running back and forth in the same 2”s or so? I do side sharpen most of the time and find it easy to use the whole stone long ways and chase back and forth across the stone as I go. No expert claim here but I don’t flatten often and anymore I use diamond plates a lot more these days except for PMV11.
Jim
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Only if the wheel sticks. At that point, you start flat sporting the wheel anyway. Really, I haven't noticed a wheel causing a significant amount of wear when I've used them.
~mike
happy in my mud hut
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Warren, is that 58 years and still no sign of black on the leather?.
Seriously, removing any steel leaves a residue on the leather. My clean leather stayed clean.
The green compound makes the whole stropping process quick. The blackening shows it works.
You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!
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No I have not used a kanaban, although Toshio Odate mentioned using a flat plate with silicon carbide in a 1981 article.
I use Arkansas stones for sharpening narrow chisels and gouges, tools that are especially rough on water stones. And once a tool is in service, I use Arkansas stones for day-to-day maintenance of the back.
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I was taught to strop with clean leather. I would notice the difference if I did not strop. I spend maybe eight seconds stropping.
Some use abrasive powder on a strop. If the abrasive is finer than their stones then it can polish the edge. And some use abrasives that break down quickly as you strop so that you are stropping with finer and finer grit as you go.
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Lots of things taught and passed on are based on misconceptions.
The Veritas green compound is very fine at 0.5 microns. Why use a compound that you have to break down to work. Honing is not a graduated process like sharpening, it is the final step. Start with a fine compound.
Under my stereo microscope, Veritas green compound on leather polishes the last 1/20 th of a mm. It does a good job, it is the only part of the blade that is shiny under 40X magnification. The black is clearly visible on the ‘green’ leather after 8 strokes. That incredibly small area is loosing steel. Your blade on the clean leather is loosing nothing, it is doing nothing.
It does help when you can actually see what you are doing.
You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!
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If the wheel is running back and forth on the same 2", so is the blade. Stu's web site is no longer available since he decided to retire from selling tools from Japan. He also posted essays on many aspects of his wares. One of them was on using water stones and how he tested various stones for many qualities. His method of sharpening was to move in straight motions but at a skewed angle to the stone. First toward one side then the other. This was to even out the wear.My question is Wouldn’t it make sense that a jig would tend to hollow a stone because the wheel is running back and forth in the same 2”s or so?
My tools also get the side sharpening treatment when my stones may need a bit of flattening.I do side sharpen most of the time and find it easy to use the whole stone long ways and chase back and forth across the stone as I go.
Like Warren, many edges are honed on my water stones before they are flattened.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
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There was a guy who used to post on this forum who claimed that we had been buying and using double iron planes for 250 years without noticing that they did not work.
Now we have a guy who claims that though we have used strops for a few millennia, we somehow never noticed that they did not work. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I use a strop because I can discern a difference.
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Often after my finest stone an edge is tested against the edge of a piece of paper. Then it is stropped and checked again.As I mentioned in an earlier post, I use a strop because I can discern a difference.
One thing noticed is stropping can improve an edge. Another thing noticed is too much stropping done carelessly can degrade an edge.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
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My understanding is that there are two reasons for using a strop. These two targets may both be sought, or just one.
A strop may be used to remove the wire from the edge of the blade. This may not polish the edge, but it will leave a sharper blade once the wire is removed. Secondly, a strop, generally with compound, is another honing “stone”. This can do double duty.
I like plain leather for the former, and smoothed hardwood for the latter.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Contributor
This shows some of the most in-depth sharpening technique.
I think he flattens the stones regularly as well as using the whole surface, and what appear to be pretty hard ceramic stones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SarDvTGivtQ
Contributor
Yep.
It should also be noted that, while it is far slower and more subtle in comparison to compound, plain leather can and does refine an edge and remove tiny amounts of metal.
I regularly strop both my tools, and razors on plain leather, and you can see the leather darken over time with small amounts of metal being deposited, assuming you use the rough side. To some extent, albiet less, on smooth sided leather as well.
But more to the point are the results. If you don't believe me, try shaving with a razor straight off of a stone. Then again with a few passes to take off the wire edge only. Then again after 50 strokes. And yet again after 100 strokes. Those additional 100 strokes, I guarantee, will give you a far, far keener edge.
The same is true for tools as well. I find that Arks, with their extremely shallow scratch pattern, are particularly well suited to being followed up with a bare leather strop. I can't claim that it's as efficient as not using compound, but if you wanted to get ultra hair popping sharp with your tools, you can do so just fine using bare leather and taking maybe 30-40 passes on each side. Even going half of this amount noticeably improves the edge well past the point of just removing the burr.
The type of leather matters a lot here. Some leather I've used works better on the rough side, some works better on the smooth side, and some pieces of leather will actually dull a tool on one or the other side. Try various pieces and see what works.
Last edited by Luke Dupont; 02-06-2023 at 10:13 AM.
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Wth the exception of his convex sharpening stone with blades moved at 45 degrees to give a concave edge the rest is very standard.
He does emphasize rounding and tailing off of the corners of plane blades to avoid edge marks. Easy to do freehand, no jig used of course. His flattening plate was far from flat as he demonstrated with a ruler.
You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!
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