Bowl Gouge Questions

[James Baldwin]

Hi, I hope I'm not opening a can or worms here but this a continuation of the Robert Sobly spindle gouge post that I made with the chuck question. I'm going to return the spindle gouge and get a bowl gouge. Crown, Thompson, and D-way were suggested. Pinnacle is available at my local Woodcraft store. I'm only looking a the Cryo steel versions. They are al priced about the same except for D-way which don't come with a handle. I have my own handles. The Pinnacle is $122 locally (cheaper than Amazon) and I like the feel of it also doesn't involve shipping which adds the overall price of the others. The D-way would be slightly less even with shipping but it doesn't specify the length of the blade. I'm also upgrading my grinding wheels to CBN from Wood Turners Wonders. Went with an 8" X 1" X 180grit on one side and a 8" X 1 1/2" X 600 grit Mega-square on the other side. Jim

[Edward Weber]

On the D Way site, there are photos under the gouges with the dimensions.

[John Keeton]

From reading the description of the Pinnacle gouges it appears they are made from M2 HSS that has been cryogenically treated. They claim it “offer many of the characteristics of powdered metal tools without the cost of powdered metal tools.”

However, they don’t expound on that.

You apparently have handles and I would think you can get a much better gouge from Thompson or D-Way for less than the Pinnacle. Most of the responses you have received on this topic in your other thread have come from folks that have been turning for many years. You have asked for opinions and it is relevant that Pinnacle was not mentioned.

[Kevin Jenness]

I second John's advice. I have several Thompson tools and they are top quality steel. D-Way also has a great reputation. One thing to keep in mind is that D-Way round bar tools are larger than the nominal dimension so may not fit in another maker's handle.

Another consideration is flute shape which can make a gouge more suitable to one or another tip shape. D-Way and Crown make parabolic flute gouges while Thompson offers either v or u shapes (Lyle Jamieson sells what he describes as a parabolic flute bowl gouge made by Thompson). They all work but you may want to know about the differences to inform your choice. Or it may just be confusing -. make of it what you will. https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....e-flute-shapes

[Edward Weber]

I second John's advice. I have several Thompson tools and they are top quality steel. D-Way also has a great reputation. One thing to keep in mind is that D-Way round bar tools are larger than the nominal dimension so may not fit in another maker's handle.

Another consideration is flute shape which can make a gouge more suitable to one or another tip shape. D-Way and Crown make parabolic flute gouges while Thompson offers either v or u shapes (Lyle Jamieson sells what he describes as a parabolic flute bowl gouge made by Thompson). They all work but you may want to know about the differences to inform your choice. Or it may just be confusing -. make of it what you will. https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....e-flute-shapes

If I could only buy one, I would get the parabolic flute.

[William C Rogers]

We all have our preferences. For me I favor the V flute.

[James Baldwin]

I just run across a video by Crafts Supplies USA comparing lathe tool steels. Looks like M42 kind of offers the best of edge holding and the fact that it can be honed to a fine edge. I'm going to take a hard look at Carter and Sons Toolworks. Their unhandled tools are reasonably priced and they offer a variety grinds. Jim

[James Baldwin]

Well I visited my Woodcraft store and took a closer look at the Pinnacle tools. They are made by Crown in Sheffield, En. They seem to be a pretty good quality. I just turn for fun and not professionally. I don't want cheap but I don't want out of sight either. They might be a good compromise but I'm looking at Carter and Son also which are M42 steel. Jim

[roger wiegand]

The grind a tool comes with is irrelevant, as it is gone after the first time you sharpen it and shape it to your preference-- and you'll be sharpening your bowl gouge several times a day. Flute shape is related to the school of grind you want to use. If you only have one gouge the Ellsworth/Irish grinds are most versatile and they work best with a parabolic flute. A 40/40 or traditional grind is more forgiving with respect to flute shape, working well with V or parabolic.

My Thompson gouges stay sharper in use noticeably longer than the M2 gouges I have, though I went probably 15 years with only a Henry Taylor Superflute (M2) with an Ellsworth grind and it served the need just fine. Just a nubbin of it left now! I also have a number of D-Way tools which are also very nice, and, at least for skews, much more nicely finished than the Thompson skews. Don't have experience with their bowl gouges. Can't speak to the Carter tools, after an interaction with them at a show a number of years ago where the person in the booth was badmouthing their competition pretty badly I decided to shop elsewhere-- their tools may well be great, I didn't appreciate the attitude.

[Neil Strong]

Pinnacle cryo made by Crown in Sheffield UK wouldn't be a bad decision. It will be slightly better than standard M2 without the cryo tempering, but not by much IME.

Cryo tempering of a steel improves it slightly, but better steels made with Powdered Metal (PM) techniques produce better carbide formation that will provide enhanced performance characteristics that might be further enhanced with cryo treatment.

The two PM steels now most commonly used in turning tools are M42 and V10 (and V15 less frequenly):

IME, M42 has finer carbides than V10 and takes a finer edge while retaining its edge longer than an M2 that has had cryo treatment.

I find that the carbides in 10V doesn't take quite as fine an edge as M42, but that edge certainly holds up very well in the more abrasive and hard woods we commonly use down here. And, 15V holds up even longer at the expense of never getting as sharp. I find the high vanadium carbides (V) have slightly more durability than M42, but only very slightly. The 10V also outperforms M2, regardless of heat treatment.

There are improvements in the performance of steels over others, but I've never found the multiples of improvement claimed my manufacturers. Price also comes into it. If you are getting twice the performance from a tool that costs half as much again then that is sufficient advantage for me, but not if it costs three times as much for only twice the performance.

i have as may 10V as M42 tools in my rack and I rarely think about the difference in their steels when I'm reaching for a tool unless it is to do a finishing cut. I don't think you can go wrong with either of those steels. I also have some bog standard M2 tools in my rack, which I've had before any of the more exotic steels and processes mentioned above came along, and they still get used very regularly and will continue to do so until they are just a bit of round bar!

Tools that include the price of a handle is another consideration. By all means buy an interchangeable handle that can be used with multiple gouges, but a woodturner paying for someone else to turn a dedicated wooden handle to come on a gouge beats me, especially if the cost of that could be put towards a better gouge steel that you put your own handle on. The shipping cost of gouges with handles already on them is another factor.

I also have views about flute profiles, but I'll leave that to a separate post.

[John Keeton]

For reasons not appropriate to post here I will never do business with Carter and Son. I personally know Doug Thompson, as do many of the folks here, as well as Dave Schweitzer, the founder of D-Way Tools. Both are quality folks. I don’t know Jimmy, the present owner of D-Way, but Dave trusted him with the business and that is good enough for me.

V10 and M42 are superior metals and either will serve one well. For me, flute profile is a very important factor. I have Doug’s V and U gouges and each has a place. His 3/8” V is one of my most used gouges, as are his spindle detail gouges. I love my D-Way parabolic bowl gouge.

I don’t see how one can go wrong with these choices.

[Reed Gray]

I have all Thompson and D Way, which have a more V shaped flute. I would like to have some unhandled parabolic fluted tools, but only place I can buy them, apparently, are from Carter and Son. On their web site they comment that the M42 HSS will take a finer edge than the V10. To me, there is NO evidence to back that up. In my years of using these tools, I can tell no difference in sharpness or edge durability when sharpened on the same grinding wheel. I have a friend/mentor who turned almost 800 key trays for the coastal myrtle wood shops, and did this for about 30 years. I asked him if he could tell any difference and he said no. I wouldn't even buy a 'signature' tool if it had my name on it... As for cryogenically treated metals, I guess that does add a bit to the durability of the edge, but as near as I can tell, it still doesn't come close to the M42 and V10 metals performance wise. That is a big enough difference that I won't even try it. For handles, I prefer a straight wood cylinder. They just feel better in my hands.

robo hippy

[John Keeton]

Reed, the D-Way gouge seems to me to be much closer to a parabolic shape than does Doug's V or U. But, that is just my impression. I am not one to try every new toy that comes out, nor every "perfect" grind. I am happy with what I have and I think all the "expert" grinds are largely a gimmick for folks to remain relevant in the turning world. I didn't take any classes, nor belong to a club, nor had a mentor when I started turning. Most of what influenced my beginnings were here on the creek, but as for the angles and grind profile of my gouges, they came about by wasting away a good portion of a gouge to arrive at something that felt comfortable and would do what I wanted with the least amount of effort and risk. I do think it would be helpful for a beginner to have a mentor, but to keep in mind that everyone does things a bit differently. There certainly are some things NOT to do, but few HAVE TO DO things.

[Edward Weber]

Reed, the D-Way gouge seems to me to be much closer to a parabolic shape than does Doug's V or U. But, that is just my impression. .

From D-Way
"The flutes are a parabolic U shaped with tapered sides not a deep V. U shaped gouges are great for either finger nail or bottom feeder grinds. "

https://d-waytools.com/gouges/bowl-gouges/

[David Bassett]

For reasons not appropriate to post here I will never do business with Carter and Son. ...

+1

(and I need more text, so: )

James, you ask for the collective wisdom of the board and apparently don't like it. But how can supporting small companies producing a superior product and dedicated to the turning community be a bad choice?