Damaged Veritas Bench Chisel Handle

[JOEL MONGEON]

I hear the food tastes way better with torrefied utensils.

[Rafael Herrera]

I guess what I'm asking is:
Am I an idiot for using a mallet with these chisels and I can use this as an expensive learning experience.
Or should I bring the chisel back to Lee Valley and see if I can get a refund or replacement?

I don't think so, you probably got a chisel with a mediocre design. A wooden mallet would not strike the handle as sharply as a metal one. The handle should not have split unless there is something wrong with the handle fitting.

I don't own one of these LV chisels, but from the picture it looks like it's a tanged chisel. It's not clear where or how the tang shoulder contacts the handle. It's not clear what the function of that conical sleeve is. Can you disassemble the chisel and lay out the parts?

I've a set of screwdrivers, the design is similar, but obviously they're not intended to be struck. The screw driver tang is embedded into the handle. The sleeve is decorative.

I wonder how the chisel is mated to the handle in your case. If there is no shoulder, it will keep digging into the handle and split. If that sleeve is somehow acting as a socket and preventing the tang from digging in, that design might work. If that failed, that could be the cause of your handle splitting. The Blue Spruce chisels look to have a similar design. It doesn't look like a robust design.

In any case, handles break, you just need to get a new one.

Rafael

20230806_203901.jpg

[Derek Cohen]

I don't think so, you probably got a chisel with a mediocre design. A wooden mallet would not strike the handle as sharply as a metal one. The handle should not have split unless there is something wrong with the handle fitting.

I don't own one of these LV chisels, but from the picture it looks like it's a tanged chisel. It's not clear where or how the tang shoulder contacts the handle. It's not clear what the function of that conical sleeve is. Can you disassemble the chisel and lay out the parts?

I've a set of screwdrivers, the design is similar, but obviously they're not intended to be struck. The screw driver tang is embedded into the handle. The sleeve is decorative.

I wonder how the chisel is mated to the handle in your case. If there is no shoulder, it will keep digging into the handle and split. If that sleeve is somehow acting as a socket and preventing the tang from digging in, that design might work. If that failed, that could be the cause of your handle splitting. The Blue Spruce chisels look to have a similar design. It doesn't look like a robust design.

In any case, handles break, you just need to get a new one.

Rafael

20230806_203901.jpg

Sorry Raphael, but your screwdriver comparison does not apply here. The connection between the handle and the blade on these Veritas chisels is identical to that of a Japanese bench chisel (oire nomi) - they use a combination of tang and socket. This is as strong as they get.




For strength between blade and handle, the design of these chisels is top notch. Only Japanese chisels are comparable.

Where the issue lies is in the wood used for the handle. I am inclined to believe that the handles mentioned are rogue and not typical of these handles generally. Not only have I not experienced anything remotely like this using them over the course of 11 years, but there would have been reports by the thousands of other miffed users in the media by now.

Here is a comparison of chisels chopping dovetails: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...sCompared.html The take away here is that all these non-hooped handles survived without a dent, which is a reflection of method and not simply handle type.

Send the chisels back to Lee Valley. They take their customers very seriously.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rafael Herrera]

And yet the OP's chisel handle broke in use with a mallet.

It'd be interesting to see the broken handle. If the tang bottomed and the handle sunk deeper into the socket as it was struck, I can see it breaking.

Rafael

[Cameron Wood]

And yet the OP's chisel handle broke in use with a mallet.

It'd be interesting to see the broken handle. If the tang bottomed and the handle sunk deeper into the socket as it was struck, I can see it breaking.

Rafael

Unless I'm missing something, the OP's chisel handle didn't break, it just got a ding that calls for a couple of strokes with a knife or file, hardly a refund, or four pages of discussion.

[Rafael Herrera]

We're talking about a later post.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....15#post3268015

[Jim Koepke]

Unless I'm missing something, the OP's chisel handle didn't break, it just got a ding that calls for a couple of strokes with a knife or file, hardly a refund, or four pages of discussion.

You may have missed post #32. Joel posted an image of his new 1" chisel with a split handle.

My question for Joel would be, what angel is the bevel on his chisel. In the images Joel posted, it looks rather steep. This combined with the thickness of the wood being removed can put a lot of stress on a chisel. Technique can also change the formula. Removing a large area of waste with just a chisel is sometime better done with a light process of striking a chisel once and stepping it forward to be struck once again. Then the chips can be removed with a paring stroke and started again. This can actually be faster than trying to remove a large amount of wood with each mallet blow.

I do not know of a way to accurately determine how hard the mallet is hitting his chisel. My whacking a chisel might be quite different than Joel's chisel whacking. On the other hand, almost all of my chisels are socket chisels so there is no interaction between the tang and the handle.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

IMNSHO,
1.The OP, or anyone should not (as common practice) strike none hooped chisels.
2. There is no benefit to torrifying the handle, This leaves the handle too brittle and provides no cushioning from striking. If it will occasionally be struck, breaking rule #1 and possibly the handle, something has to give.
3. Many chisels have this hybrid or belt and suspenders type of connection, it is quite strong but as with any connection, it must be fitted properly. The Veritas that Derek pictured has a tapered ferrule, acting as a socket. Other brands use a straight sided ferrule and a leather washer is placed between the handle and the shoulder of the bolster. This provides cushioning for the occasional strike.
4. Manufacturers have bad runs. This could just be a matter of a small batch of over torrified handles or improper fitting of some element in the handle connection.
4. ANY handle can be broken it abused or simply used incorrectly. If repeated striking is necessary, use the appropriate chisel with a hoop.

The OP's breakage could be one or some combination all of these things, we may never know.

[Rafael Herrera]

IMNSHO,
1.The OP, or anyone should not (as common practice) strike none hooped chisels.

I'm not sure how you have reached that conclusion. I routinely strike my bench chisels with a wooden or plastic mallet.

When looking at old catalogs, the hooped chisels were those for particularly heavy duty work. See page 20 in the catalog linked below.

Hooped bench chisels, excluding the Japanese ones, are rather coarse looking and I don't like them for bench work.

http://www.hansbrunnertools.com/Math...lusreduced.pdf

Rafael

[Edward Weber]

I'm not sure how you have reached that conclusion. I routinely strike my bench chisels with a wooden or plastic mallet.

When looking at old catalogs, the hooped chisels were those for particularly heavy duty work. See page 20 in the catalog linked below.

Hooped bench chisels, excluding the Japanese ones, are rather coarse looking and I don't like them for bench work.

http://www.hansbrunnertools.com/Math...lusreduced.pdf

Rafael

What you strike your chisels with is up to you. If you have to do it, which we all do from time to time, use something other than steel.

"When looking at old catalogs, the hooped chisels were those for particularly heavy duty work"
So what's your point? Hooped chisels are better designed for work that requires them being repeatedly struck. Even the old chisels that did not have a metal hoop, often have a leather hoop/cap to cushion the blow.

I'll try to answer your question with a question of my own.
What is the purpose of a hoop?

Some bench chisels are better designed to be struck than others.

[Cameron Wood]

We're talking about a later post.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....15#post3268015

OK then, carry on. Just a bad piece of wood, my guess.

[JOEL MONGEON]

I was going to hold off on updating until later this week. I reached out to Lee Valley and they have shipped me a replacement which should arrive on Wednesday. So I'm very pleased with that. I think going forward I'll save my LV chisels for light/delicate work. I really do enjoy the feel and balance of these chisels. They feel extremely good in my hands so I'll keep using them but will search for a more robust set for rougher work.

Here are a few more pictures for you to see what happened. A close of up of the base of the chisel shows not just one split but a few smaller ones developing. So maybe it is the torrefied wood itself. Or I was just hitting it too hard with my wooden mallet. The bevel angle is supposed to be 25 degree. I have not measured it but don't see why it wouldn't be 25.

I don't want to try and split the handle apart for more forensic work as LV wants the chisel back after I receive my replacement.

Thanks for all the comments, I still have a ton to learn.

20230807_135100.jpg
20230807_135108.jpg
20230807_135129.jpg

[Rafael Herrera]

What you strike your chisels with is up to you. If you have to do it, which we all do from time to time, use something other than steel.

"When looking at old catalogs, the hooped chisels were those for particularly heavy duty work"
So what's your point? Hooped chisels are better designed for work that requires them being repeatedly struck. Even the old chisels that did not have a metal hoop, often have a leather hoop/cap to cushion the blow.

I'll try to answer your question with a question of my own.
What is the purpose of a hoop?

Some bench chisels are better designed to be struck than others.

Hitting a bench chisel with a hammer, unless it's metal capped or hooped, is a terrible practice.

Observing what was offered by manufacturers of the past, when these tools were more widely used, can be give us clues as to what was the state of the art at the time.

As can be noted in the catalog and any other catalog you can find online, the hoops were reserved for heavy duty chisels.

Here's another reference, https://williammarplesandsons.com/chisels/, none of their handles had leather caps. They did offer hooped handles, though.

I may be mistaken, but the only handles I've seen with leather caps are the Stanley 7xx types. If you ask me, more of a gimmick than an improvement.

Heavy malleting will eventually crush the fibers of any handle, the hoop will mitigate that.

Rafael

[Rafael Herrera]

... I think going forward I'll save my LV chisels for light/delicate work. I really do enjoy the feel and balance of these chisels. They feel extremely good in my hands so I'll keep using them but will search for a more robust set for rougher work.

Here are a few more pictures for you to see what happened. A close of up of the base of the chisel shows not just one split but a few smaller ones developing. So maybe it is the torrefied wood itself. Or I was just hitting it too hard with my wooden mallet. The bevel angle is supposed to be 25 degree. I have not measured it but don't see why it wouldn't be 25.

I don't want to try and split the handle apart for more forensic work as LV wants the chisel back after I receive my replacement.

20230807_135100.jpg

It does look like the handle broke at the top. There goes my theory.

It certainly is your choice what tools you want to use, try not to be swayed by gimmicky features.

Torrefaction is a thermo-chemical process that reduces the moisture content of wood and transforms it into a brittle, char-type material. The thermo-chemical process can reduce the mass of wood by 20-30% resulting in a denser, higher-valued product that can be transported more economically than traditional wood chips.

https://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/ja/...tchell_001.pdf

The handle is extra dry, not that advantageous if you're malleting it hard.

Rafael

[Jim Koepke]

I may be mistaken, but the only handles I've seen with leather caps are the Stanley 7xx types. If you ask me, more of a gimmick than an improvement.

A lot of chisels with other branding have come my way with leather caps.

Craftsman Chisels.jpg

Craftsman chisels are the only ones for which an image can be found at the moment.

The leather often had a hole in the center and was fitted over a dowel. This tended to keep the wood from mushrooming at the top of the chisel.

jtk