Admin Announcement - Please Read

[Jim Becker]

I am sorry, but as you should know just from life experience (and listening to the news), when certain legal matters are involved, very often silence is a requirement for all involved parties. This is one of those times...please respect Keith, et al, as he has actually been forthcoming enough to mention that there is a situation...and he didn't have to do that.

[Allen Grimes]

First of all, my last post, like always, didnt come out the way I intended it to. There are a lot of people on these forums that have helped me since I came here and whose opinions I respect and whose knowledge I value.

I didnt mean to make it look like Tod is a god or anything, just that he has by far, helped me the most and in a very short period of time, He has been a tremendous help to me and I greatly appreciate that.

I know sometimes when I write, it comes out like a jumbled up mess and sometimes even though seemingly clear, it is not at all what I meant for it to be. That said Tod is still a great man in my eyes and I will never forget the help he gave me.

Another person who gave me a lot of advice in the past is Frank Pellow, and I feel bad about not mentioning him in the last post, but Frank is a good guy and Im sure that he wont take it the wrong way. Sorry Frank.

Anyway, for the topic at hand, because of great people like Frank, Tod and others, may they be pros or not, I have been willing to keep my mouth shut in an attempt to try to keep the peace at least from my end. Also, I honestly DO NOT want to cause any legal problems for anybody at all.

My problem isnt so much that we have to mute our opinions, I dont like it, but I will do so, because I do value this website. My problem is that at least as far as I have seen, the only company that we are not allowed to say negative things about is China Green. I understand that a representative comes/came here and help(s/ed) some of the owners of the tools, and that in itself is reason enough for me to shut my mouth about them regardless of how I really feel.

I keep my mouth shut, because I mostly feel that it is the right thing to do, and I want to keep my mouth shut. What I dont like is being told what to say and how to say it. I feel that we are losing the essence of what makes this forum so good, by taking out the honesty that is our individuality. I dont think it is right that we are told to shut up, we should be able to make that decision on our own.

By taking away our rights to speak freely you are turning us into puppets instead of people. I would much rather hear a man slander a company than lie and say he likes said company, even if that happens to be a company that I admire.

This is the last I will say on this topic because it is very taxing to me, as it puts me in a bad mood and once Im in a bad mood it is almost impossible to get out. Also I will continue to keep my mouth shut, but let it be known that I do so because I want to, not because I am told. I am an honest and good man.

One last thing Keith, (yes this was written to you) well a question actually. Does this new law apply to all manufacturers or just the ones who make Green Chinese tools? I ask this sincerely because so far it seems that it only appies to them. Oh and about the lawsuit, can you at least let us know what color tools, the people who are suing you make?

Thank you. That is all.

[Dev Emch]

I am sorry, but as you should know just from life experience (and listening to the news), when certain legal matters are involved, very often silence is a requirement for all involved parties. This is one of those times...please respect Keith, et al, as he has actually been forthcoming enough to mention that there is a situation...and he didn't have to do that.

True; however, all evidence upon which any action may be taken must be provided to both the plaintiff and the defendent. In this case, evidence would comprise computer records in the form of forum entries. Appearently, one side already has all of this data and the other side is not even aware its been named. Both sides need an ample amount of time to prepare. So it would be in the best interest of both parties that the everyone involved be notified. Not the world in general but all involved parties.

[Jim Becker]

By taking away our rights to speak freely you are turning us into puppets instead of people. I would much rather hear a man slander a company than lie and say he likes said company, even if that happens to be a company that I admire.

No rights to speak freely have been taken away. Not in the least. Keith is addressing a specific situation and it is not unlike others that different forums have had to address from time to time. It comes with the territory.

Please, please, folks, trust that the right thing is being done for this specific situation...and move on. There is so much to discuss about woodworking, tools and so forth, rather than getting deep into assumptions in this thread. Let Keith worry about it...and deal with it appropriately.

[Don Baer]

There is so much to discuss about woodworking, tools and so forth, rather than getting deep into assumptions in this thread. Let Keith worry about it...and deal with it appropriately.

Amen to that Jim.

[tod evans]

[quote=Jim Becker]
There is so much to discuss about woodworking, tools and so forth,. quote]

jim,
isn`t that what this thread is about? tools, specifically a certain as of yet unnamed importer, crying foul and threatening legal action...

shouldn`t each of us as members of this forum and possibly potential customers of this importer be made aware that a portion of the dollars spent with this importer may be used to litigate against the forum? would it be in our best interest as a community to hire legal representation so that we are truely free to voice our opinions? is keith the only one affected by this behavior? or are each of us who contribute our knowledge also affected? not to mention those who come here seeking knowledge or opinions.... .02 tod

[Keith Outten]

If you go back to my original message in this thread you will see that I touched on the issue of being responsible and making sure that your comments are factual. This is a key issue with all online forums today, the situation is just catching up with other areas of the media.

SMC is not in any danger, we did exactly what we were supposed to do...remove the offending post as soon as we were made aware of the issue. There is no guaranrtee that this wil progress any farther than a legal investigation, the facts will be evaluated and a course of action decided. If the issue is actually promoted to the next level then all parties will be notified. The specifics of this particular case are not to be debated here at SMC, in fact we have no official part in the disagreement and the course of action is completely out of our hands.

The only reason I have mentioned this publicly is to remind everyone that we are responsible for what we say. We do not have the right to defame or to post information that is untrue. This is equally true whether it is directed toward a business or an individual.

As Jim said lets get back to woodworking.

[Allen Grimes]

Keith like I said, I will keep my mouth shut out of respect for this forum. I am a grown man and I can admit when I am wrong and I will even appoligize when I feel it necessary.

That said, I do think that it is wrong to keep this information from us. I for one dont want to give any of my money to somebody who is bullying a public internet message board, with lawyers and lawsuits.

I come here to learn and one thing that is very important to me is that I like the people I am buying my tools from. That is why I dont buy from some manufacturers anymore. If somebody has some information about a certain tool company that I feel is a perfectly good reason NOT to buy anything at all from them, then I would hope that that person would willingly give out that information.

I dont like being bullied and I will not support people who bully me or anybody else and I dont think that they should be protected either. I can only assume who these people are, but it bothers me that I dont know for sure.

I honestly feel that if you werent willling to say who it was in the first place, then you shouldnt have mentioned it at all, because that can only lead us to suspect certain people and if those people arent the culprits, then they will wrongfully lose business, from me at least. In this situation, the company that I suspect that it is, has already lost me as a customer, for their tasteless internet representation, but if it is not them then there is somebody else who I feel doesnt deserve my money and I would like to know who that is.

Keith I mean no disrespect, but it is not fair to bring this up for the sake of argument only to hide the facts from us.

I love this forum because I learned soo much from it, and met some really good people in the proccess. I dont want to leave and I hope that one day I can help somebody else the way I've been helped. For the admiration that I have for the many users of this forum including you I will be as peaceful and respectful as possible and I will try my hardest not to cause problems.

I think that it is only fair to ask to be treated with that same respect and to be treated as an adult and most of all to be treated fairly.

Honestly Keith I wouldnt have said anything at all, if I felt I was being treated fairly, but I dont, if I have to keep my mouth shut, then so should you especially when it comes to bringing up topics so serious only to leave us wondering what is going on.

That is all I have to say. Again I mean no disrespect, I only ask for respect. Thank you

[Paul B. Cresti]

Very interesting.....So now not only do I need to continue to have General Liability Insurance for my woodworking business and Professional Liability Insurance for being a Registered Architect but now I need to get Internet Liability Insurance too! Egads what is next ..... are my kids going to try to sue me for sending them to bed early for the "trauma" I have caused them??

[Charlie Plesums]

..... are my kids going to try to sue me for sending them to bed early for the "trauma" I have caused them??

There are lawyers who would be glad to work with your children on their case, if your pockets are deep enough.

[tod evans]

The specifics of this particular case are not to be debated here at SMC, in fact we have no official part in the disagreement and the course of action is completely out of our hands.

.

okay i`ll buy that "this particular case" may not be debated.... but, this topic should not rest untill each of us are educated. if those of us who post about our experiences woodworking need to fear litigation for expressing our viewpoint on tools, material or even hardware isn`t it only right that we be informed in advance which importers/venders have the propencity to threaten legal action against the forum or one of its members? i`ll lay odds that the number of complaints can be narrowed down to only one vendor, one who is well known for their hair triggered legal team.
what say you keith? will you name the vendor(s) who feel the need to bring lawyers to bear? or will you remain mute leaving those of us who care in the dark? something as subtile as" please make nice comments about vendor xyz" would suffice....02 tod

[Frank Pellow]

Relative to Keith's recent reference to "Uncle Bob" (I "think" I coined that one...), it refers to Bob Marino. You won't find him in the directory as "Uncle Bob"...

I'm too old for Bob to be my uncle. But, Bob and I certainly have a good relationship, so maybe I will call him "Nephew Bob"!

[Frank Pellow]

[SIZE=2]
...
Another person who gave me a lot of advice in the past is Frank Pellow, and I feel bad about not mentioning him in the last post, but Frank is a good guy and Im sure that he wont take it the wrong way. Sorry Frank.
...

Thanks Allen, I am glad that I have been of help to you. It's just returning a small amount of the help that I have received here at Saw Mill Creek.

By the way, I read the post where you thanked Tod, and it did not even cross my mind that you should also have been thanking me.

[Keith Outten]

Tod,

This issue isn't mine to discuss and I am not able to provide details. Basically it's none of my business, the problem exists between two other parties and SMC is not involved in the complaint.

The issue is very simple....You have the right to speak the truth. Other than that I am not able to give you legal advice.

[Allen Grimes]

Thanks Allen, I am glad that I have been of help to you. It's just returning a small amount of the help that I have received here at Saw Mill Creek.

By the way, I read the post where you thanked Tod, and it did not even cross my mind that you should also have been thanking me.

I knew you wouldn't take offense to it or anything, but I did feel it was unfair to praise Tod and not you when you have given me good advice as well.

Tod,

This issue isn't mine to discuss and I am not able to provide details. Basically it's none of my business, the problem exists between two other parties and SMC is not involved in the complaint.

The issue is very simple....You have the right to speak the truth. Other than that I am not able to give you legal advice.

Well that opens things up a lot then doesnt it. So if I understand correctly, I am allowed to say whatever I want about whatever company as long as its true and I will not be sued?

So I could say: "I dont like company G, because I feel that they way they handle some situations on public forums are very distasteful"

"I dont like company G, because I feel that the way they do business is shameful"

"I dont like company G, because I feel that their tools are shameless clones of other machines"

If it is true that I feel that way, then I can say that right? I mean, I wouldnt be lying. So then my posts should be safe from deletion and I shouldn't have to worry about a lawsuit, right?

Thanks Keith, and I say this sincerely, thanks for clearing this matter up. I have nothing more to say.

EDIT: I know this may look like I am being a smart***, but I am really being sincere