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Thread: Admin Announcement - Please Read

  1. #16
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    What Jim said.
    Good, Fast, Cheap--Pick two.

  2. #17
    100% on target, keith.
    What you do today determines what you can do tomorrow.

  3. #18
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    Keith, the thing that I really like about SMC is the friendly atmosphere, admittedly at times some of us get carried away and start expressing views that maybe should be toned down some but overall it is a well behaved/respectful community. I think your reminder that it is up to each of us to keep it that way is dead on; I'm not saying we should not express our views or opinions just that we need to remember thats just what they are (individual views/opinions) and we need to learn to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

    As far as vendors/manufactures I think the value of having them being active members of our community far outweighs any negatives because of at little "yield" sign with the exclamation point button in the top right corner of each post.....it works !!

    Thanks for all you do,
    David

  4. #19
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    Keith, I too believe that venders and manufacturers should be contributing to discussions here, they have the information we all need rather than relying on "well I heard this from so and so about......."
    BUT we need to know and understand any boundries that may exist when asking manufacturers questions. Example: when some members have asked about manufacturing practices, you appear to get emails that discuss potential legal actions. Why would there be any legal action for asking these types of questions????????

  5. #20
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    Dan, I may be wrong, but I believe that "Manufacturing Practices" are "Proprietary" information. At least that is what we called them.

    Bruce

  6. #21
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    <DIR>OK…..I guess me being a woman puts me in the rather comfortable position of disagreeing with men, so here we go.
    First of all, I personally take offense at being treated like a child in kindergarten. The TOS are there in black and white for us all to read and abide by…..if you think there is need to remind people of that, then by all means do so but do not, I repeat do not hide behind the “rules” to voice innuendos about a member of this forum. Anyone that has actually been reading the threads about a certain tool company will know that a certain member has been doing a pretty fair job of pushing for answers. Funny, the answers never come either in private or on the forum……instead posts have either been delete, entire threads moved and even locked. And yet, this member has never been warned publicly or privately that he is indeed violating any of the TOS. Maybe because he hasn’t. You know, more and more here at SMC, it appears that you don’t have to break any of the stated rules, you just have to have an opinion that differs with that of the Administration. Or, now it appears, to write a reply that somehow questions manufacturing practices of a certain company. It is completely beyond me that questions would be considering bashing or unfriendly. I have read all the posts involved…..had any of them contained flaming or unfair observations, they would have been removed ASAP! And with I am sure, the majority of the members support however, there, has been nothing I have seen that has been written in the last while that has been an attack of any magnitude…unanswered questions perhaps……concern for US jobs most definitely. In fact……….there have, on several occasions been attacks launch with regards to Big Box Stores…… one in particular. Yet, they have been allowed to be discussed. Members have vented numerous times about service (or lack there of) issues as well as complaints made about lumber/material. Yet hey - it seems to be OK to vent when it comes to other manufactures or retailers but holy cow……..everyone better be nice when speaking of the latest SMC tool mascot!

    </DIR>
    One of our long-term goals is to attract the people that build the equipment we purchase to join SMC


    <DIR>Why…….why is that a goal ??? So we can pretend that they are helping us when in all actuality, we are being “sold to”. What help are they to us as woodworkers if we can not be told the truth…….if in fact we are not even permitted to ASK for the truth for fear that the Administration will publicly ridicule us for asking. We are subjected to pictures of pretty showrooms……expensive board rooms and tools lined up for the picking, but when question regarding quality of the tool arises……watch out. I can go to any tool retailer and get the same information……in fact, the retailers often will tell you of inferior tools if indeed you are a serious buyer. Now, not for one minute am I suggesting that any of the vendors or manufactures are producing/selling inferior products. That is not an issue……I wouldn’t care if companies that chose to participate at SMC build tools that would last several lifetimes and cost little………that is not the issue here. What is the issue as I see it, is that we as a community are being told in one breath that , because it is self supporting, do not have to worry about loosing sponsors and yet in the next breath are being told that we are not permitted to “criticize unfairly” ( and just who decides what is fair - the tool manufacture who is feeling criticized?) or “push our own views.” Just when does sharing opinions and concerns cross over to pushing ones views and once again, just who makes that determination.
    Concern over legal ramifications?? Please! Any tool company/manufacture that would even entertain such a notion as to instigate a lawsuit against a woodworkers whom voiced an opinion on an open forum, is just cutting their own throat - and they know it. You don’t go and publicly alienate the very consumer you are trying to lure. And believe me, anyone suing someone because of their personal opinions, would alienate a more than just a few. Now, if a person were to purposely attack a company and make false statements with regard to that company ( a very different thing than an opinion or question), then of course they have a right to defend their reputation against lies causing damages and seek retribution such damages. But just as a corporation file lawsuits, so can individuals who have been slandered in public without just cause.
    Now personally, I don’t have a problem with representatives of tool companies becoming members of any forum. (Rob Lee of Lee Valley has been an active participant of several forum with no issues - he has always been up front and helpful and willing to answer questions to the best of his abilities) I do however feel that they should be held responsible in all of their posts to also respect and abide by the same TOS that all members agree to at the time of signing…….that goes right down to using their full name…….no initials. And…….if any of these companies chose to use SMC as a advertising venue
    then they better be prepared to go the distance and answer questions honestly and openly. They are the ones who joined a public forum…….they know that there are people with opinions that will differ from theirs and yet obviously still choose to participate.

    </DIR>If an obvious issue arises when one member is personally or professionally attacking anyone, then by all means, moderate. But the quest for information on forums such as this should only be moderated it there is a blatant violation of the TOS. As you stated in your opening sentence……..
    SawMill Creek exists only to provide a method for woodworkers to communicate.


    <DIR>We all communicate a little differently, what is important to some mean nothing to others. But, that is what makes this such a great place, we all can share our differences as well as our similarities.

    </DIR>Thanks for allowing me to share my opinion.

    Last edited by Shelley Bolster; 01-27-2006 at 9:00 PM.

  7. #22
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    Apparently there's something obvious I'm not getting, because for the life of me, I can see no reason why any question that a member could ask about a particular product would have legal ramifications just because it is directed to an identified vendor representative. These vendor reps are free to answer or not answer any question posed to them. In particular, "that information is proprietary" is a perfectly acceptable answer to any question.

    What exactly is the problem here?
    Yoga class makes me feel like a total stud, mostly because I'm about as flexible as a 2x4.
    "Design"? Possibly. "Intelligent"? Sure doesn't look like it from this angle.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee DeRaud
    What exactly is the problem here?
    IMHO, the problem is that there are a couple members who have become well known for immediately jumping into threads, especially those involving a certain manufacturer and attacking. Usually the response is based on a percieved lack of quality and nationalism and rarely any actual knowledge of that manufacturer. The posts usually use confrontational language and serve no useful purpose with respect to woodworking. Other times posts are critical, even of beginners, for not purchasing some old piece of equipment and restoring it to a condition beyond original.

    With respect to asking a manufacturer a question, once or twice is fine. Repeatedly crosses the line. As Lee stated, the manufactuers should feel free NOT to answer the question, and essentially "calling out" the representative is not conducive to the enviroment that the creek has always been about.

  9. #24
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    Lee,
    A couple of weeks ago there were a couple of threads discussing where and how some machine tools were manufactured. A request was made for input from equipment manufacturers as to how their equipment was produced. If I recall correctly, the question was something like did vender A run their equipment down the same production line as vender B, using the same designs and processes or were they truely unique in design and processing.
    I believe the poster did not even get a response from the equipment folks one way or another. They did not even puplicly say it was propriatory information. At least not that I recall seeing.
    After working for a military contractor for 30 years, I had the oportunity to state that very thing many many times, it is not a big deal.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Oliphant
    I believe the poster did not even get a response from the equipment folks one way or another. They did not even puplicly say it was propriatory information. At least not that I recall seeing.
    Either way I see it becoming ammunition against them. Either they don't answer and are criticized for being silent or they say that they won't say and are criticized for being elusive.

  11. #26
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    Matt,
    Don't loose sight of my original question to Keith. If a manufacturer chooses to not say anything or to say it's propriatory that is fine in my book. My comment pretained to eluded to legal actions.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Oliphant
    Matt,
    Don't loose sight of my original question to Keith. If a manufacturer chooses to not say anything or to say it's propriatory that is fine in my book. My comment pretained to eluded to legal actions.
    Sorry Dan, I didn't mean to imply anything about your question. Just editorializing on what I believe would probably happen in such a thread in the current climate.

  13. #28
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    Sorry Matt, but I really don't understand what you mean by this.......

    The posts usually use confrontational language and serve no useful purpose with respect to woodworking.
    First, confrontational language.....I would like to see a link to a post that had this so called confrontational language.....I must have missed it or, perhaps I am just a little less touchy than some.

    Last I looked, my shop was full of tools that I use daily.....so I do think tools have a place in woodworking discussions.

    Also, I will state again, I have no problem where the heck a tool is made......if it came from Mars I wouldn't care. My response was not fuelled by disagreements about tools origins.......it has to do with belittling one person in a public forum for the benefit of a company. It has to do with that same company enjoying unbelievable exposure yet hiding behind an administration/moderating that for some reason believes that a corporation is more important to SMC than the members that are in my opinion, the blood running through it's veins.

    Either way I see it becoming ammunition against them. Either they don't answer and are criticized for being silent or they say that they won't say and are criticized for being elusive.
    But, just how elusive or silent are these folks when it comes to "the sell"? No one forced anyone to join, to come here as a representive of a tool company and talk about those tools, in my opinion, opens you up to questions. You don't want the "tough questions" then you don't participate when it comes to the "easy sell". It can't always be one sided......you have to accept the good with the bad.

    Course, perhaps I am wrong. Just maybe we are here for another reason than to discuss woodworking???

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelley Bolster
    First, confrontational language.....I would like to see a link to a post that had this so called confrontational language.....I must have missed it or, perhaps I am just a little less touchy than some.
    To me any post implying that the poster's point of view is the only correct point of view. I've been seeing a lot of posts with that implication, but I've been accused of being too sensitive to that sort of thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelley Bolster
    Last I looked, my shop was full of tools that I use daily.....so I do think tools have a place in woodworking discussions.
    Couldn't agree more when it comes to discussing the pro's and con's of a tool based on actual experience with said tool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelley Bolster
    it has to do with belittling one person in a public forum for the benefit of a company. It has to do with that same company enjoying unbelievable exposure yet hiding behind an administration/moderating that for some reason believes that a corporation is more important to SMC than the members that are in my opinion, the blood running through it's veins.
    If we are all talking about who I think we are talking about, its not just one company. Actually, its pretty much every company in business today--including one small business that makes a very high quality product right here in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelley Bolster
    But, just how elusive or silent are these folks when it comes to "the sell"? No one forced anyone to join, to come here as a representive of a tool company and talk about those tools, in my opinion, opens you up to questions. You don't want the "tough questions" then you don't participate when it comes to the "easy sell". It can't always be one sided......you have to accept the good with the bad.
    With only a couple exceptions I can think of, most of our fellow members who are reps of various companies are very quiet with respect to selling. For example Bob Marino hasn't said one word in my Festool thread nor PM'd me. If he were here to sell, I'd think he'd be trying hard to get me to buy from him. At a minimum, I think he would have been trying to steer me away from the competing product. One manufacturer was pretty vocal and was given a lot of lattitude--probably too much IMHO--due to his financial support of the FPP, but I think a solution was found that works very well.

  15. #30
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    Wow, this is some serious material. But we live in a serious time so even mundane aspects of our woodworking lives get interwoven into some of these threads. I welcome that.

    Today, I heard Fox news talking about how unpatriotic it is to not buy a US made automobile in lieu of the layoffs and issues happening at Ford and GMC these days. Those were some heated discussions. It reminded me of what was going on here at SMC. But the point did come up that US consumers are savey and will buy the best quality for the lowest price. Of course, recently that word quality and quality control have gotten more milage and lip service than it warrents or has earned.

    But I have to admit that being on the other side of the fence where the grass is greener, (Oliver Teal to be exact), one natuarally is more sensitive to some of these issues. I am sure that had the old oliver survived, it would have representatives on this forum but that it not the case. It is up to those of us remaining to keep the flicker of that torch alive in the minds of those who come before us. We are but a small minority. And so often, its the minorities that get the discrimatory behavior wielded against them. You never see poltiical prisoners comming from the majority rulling faction do you?

    So in as much as I can appreciate the original focus of this thread by Keith, I also have to say that there is an underground sentiment of a double standard at work. So we all need to be more receptive to the fact that some folks do hold opinions that differ from the majority. I can appreciate that. But as the 1949 supreme court implemented the rule of the land for separation of chruch and state, so must SMC strive to keep a separation of corporate entity and state (SMC). For if corporations are allowed to sway opinions of SMC management and ultimately lobby users, it can have a profound and negative affect on the objectivity of this forum in general. We walk on thin ice here gentlemen. Lets put the geinie back in the bottle and work to get along objectively with varrying opinions and all.
    Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.

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