Diamond or water stones

[Reed Gray]

Being some what new to the flat work world, in getting the sharpening set ups that I wanted, I opted for diamond lapping plates rather than the traditional water stones. I guess the main reasons were that the diamond stones take no maintenance other than washing them off, and they don't make any mess. Did I miss anything? I do have a 30+ year old set of DMT stones that I got when I first set up my shop, and they had pretty much stopped working, but put on some Trend lapping fluid and they came back to life. I would expect the diamond to outlive me, and they will never need flattening. They now have lapping plates up to 8000 grit. Am I missing anything? I do have one water stone, but haven't even gotten it wet yet.

robo hippy

[Kevin Jenness]

You'll get plenty of opinions on this as with any sharpening question.

I use DMT Duo Sharp stones, the ones with perforations in most of the matrix and a small continuous diamond section for small blades, 220/325 and 600/1200. I also have an 8000# diamond stone but no longer use it as it is so slow.

I typically grind with a 180# CBN wheel, then hone with the 1200# diamond and an 8000# Shapton waterstone and polish with green CRO2 on a leather strop and/or a felt wheel. None of the stones need more than a spritz of water, the diamonds stay flat and the waterstone is easy enough to flatten occasionally with a coarse diamond stone.

The diamond stone evens out my hand-guided ground edge and tunes it up in between grinding sessions while the waterstone quickly refines the edge to a high polish. Stropping is icing on the cake. Sometimes I drop back to 600# to straighten out the ground edge. For me this is a quick and reliable way to get to sharp without fooling around. I used to use just waterstones that needed to soak, now I spend very little time working on the stones to keep them flat.

[andy bessette]

...I do have one water stone, but haven't even gotten it wet yet...

The problem is lack of experience with water stones. Learn to use these properly and you will understand the need for them.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I’ve been switching to diamond stones as my water stones wear out. I use DMT Diasharp. Spent more time maintaining the water stones and cleaning up the mess than actual sharpening. I have a grinder with Norton wheels set up for major edge work and another with a cotton and felt wheel for final honing. 80% of my blades are LN A2.

[Jim Koepke]

Am I missing anything?

You may be missing an important consideration.

Are you getting your blades sharp enough to fulfill your woodworking goals? If the answer is yes, then you are likely not missing anything.

Another little bit of information that may also be of help is what water stone do you have?

If it is a fine polishing stone, my suggestion would be to get it wet and see if it can improve the edge you are able to achieve with your diamond plate.

For many years my water stones were my primary sharpening media. Since water freezes in my shop during the winter, oilstones had to be used during the colder months. Over time better oil stones were acquired from Dan's Whetstones. The oilstones are not quite as fast or as easy as the water stones. They are awful darned close enough for my purposes.

Diamond stones only have one advantage for me, they do not need oil or water before use. This is why one is in the kitchen to help keep a keen edge on all the knives.

Mounted Diamond Stone.jpg

This is a flat 1X4" diamond stone mounted on a piece of mahogany. A shallow mortise was cut into the wood and then the stone was epoxied into the mortise. The image is a little bit soft focus due to my breath condensing on the lens before the picture was taken.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Being some what new to the flat work world, in getting the sharpening set ups that I wanted, I opted for diamond lapping plates rather than the traditional water stones. I guess the main reasons were that the diamond stones take no maintenance other than washing them off, and they don't make any mess. Did I miss anything? I do have a 30+ year old set of DMT stones that I got when I first set up my shop, and they had pretty much stopped working, but put on some Trend lapping fluid and they came back to life. I would expect the diamond to outlive me, and they will never need flattening. They now have lapping plates up to 8000 grit. Am I missing anything? I do have one water stone, but haven't even gotten it wet yet.

robo hippy

Reed, the bottom line is that diamond stones do not run to grits that are advisable for plane and bench chisel blades. An Extra Fine diamond plate is 1200 grit, which is roughly where my sharpening of flat tools begins its journey.

How you get to around 8000-10000 (and above) is a choice. My recommendation would be Shapton Pro because these are easy to find. My preference is a Shapton Pro 1000, and Sigma 6000 and 13000. Others may prefer diamond papers, but eventually they cost more.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

I have an extra extra fine DMT that use with with regular tool steels followed by a strop. I have many (17) PMV 11 plane irons that I get the water stones out. I don’t like the water stone mess because of no dedicated space. When I get them out I touch up any irons that I think are even close.
Jim

[Andrew Hughes]

I use Shapton pro stones.
I have some dmt plastic honing thingys but they are not for serious woodworking
To keep the Shaptons NASA flat and cutting like new I have a very special diamond plate.
Good Luck

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Reed, the bottom line is that diamond stones do not run to grits that are advisable for plane and bench chisel blades. An Extra Fine diamond plate is 1200 grit, which is roughly where my sharpening of flat tools begins its journey.


Regards from Perth

Derek

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/D...-P125C166.aspx

8,000 grit. DMT also makes a 4,000 grit.

[Derek Cohen]

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/D...-P125C166.aspx

8,000 grit. DMT also makes a 4,000 grit.

An issue with diamonds is that errand diamonds on a plate will leave deep scratches. This is okay in the lower grits, but not so when you are polishing at the end.

One exception I have found are the cheap (!) diamond disks on eBay which are for lapidary use. They are amazing - not an easy shape for honing plane and chisel blades, but I keep a couple in the kitchen for knives, and a couple in the workshop for small, specialist blades that might otherwise gouge a waterstone.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Keegan Shields]

Reed,

Like everything, there are a bunch of ways to get sharp results. I have used Shapton Pro water stones for the past couple of years and have had good success with them. I use 1k, 2k, 5k, 8k, and 12k. Admittedly overkill, but it works great for me. Most of the wear and tear is on the 1k. The first time I really sharpened a plane iron and took a fine shaving, the surface left behind was amazing. I had no idea wood could look like that.

I do find that my 1k Trend diamond stone, which is really well broken in, leaves a coarser finish than my 1k water stone. Obviously not a DMT stone, but I found it interesting.

I also took Derek’s advice and started hollow grinding my irons and chisels on a 180 CBN wheel using a tormek jig. It has really helped with freehand sharpening and has sped up the sharpening process for me. That’s important, because when I run into trouble, it’s usually because I should have stopped and resharpened the tool. Still working on that

Bottom line for me - find a system that gives you good results. Maybe give your water stone a try if you are curious about them. The lower grits (1k, 2k, etc) aren’t that expensive to try. And it sounds like you already have the diamond plates needed to keep them flat.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

An issue with diamonds is that errand diamonds on a plate will leave deep scratches. This is okay in the lower grits, but not so when you are polishing at the end.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I don’t believe this is much of an issue with DMT DiaSharp stones. At least I haven’t found it to be. But then, I’m not anal when it comes to sharpening. When necessary, I examine my blades with a Schneider 3x photographer’s loupe, not a microscope. With a brief touch on the cotton or felt wheel, my blades get a mirror finish and are more than sharp enough for my purposes.

[Reed Gray]

Andy, your comment wasn't really any kind of answer at all, and if you can, give an explanation.

As for me, i am blessed or cursed with the engineer's motto, which is "if it ain't broke, fix it anyway" so I have to experiment. The diamond lapping plates from DMT make the most sense to me. They are dead flat, come in grits up to 8000, and a spritz of water, ammonia free (so it doesn't mess with the plating) glass cleaner, or Trend lapping fluid keep them clean. As for there being abrasive particles that stick up way too high, I guess there are some, but like the abrasives used for sanding, since they have gone to electrostatic charges rather than screening/sifting, the particles are far more uniform than they used to be. I do have a 16000 Shapton stone, and have a 30000 one on order. Supposedly, according to the local Woodcraft store, this is Rob Cosman's favorite final stone. At present, I really can't feel any difference in a plane blade or chisel that was sharpened on an 8000 grit stone or a 16000 stone, and then stropped with 16000 grit honing paste. As I get more experienced, I may be able to feel those differences. Agree that I do need need more experience. As near as I can tell, my chisels are sharp enough to get results I want. I also have experimented with one plane blade that I sharpened on 220 grit plate, then stropped the burr off. It still cut fine, though required a bit more push to get the shavings, it sounded considerably different, and the resulting surface was not shiny like one taken to 16000 grit, so it still worked. I do have one water stone in the shop, and will be playing around with it, just because. Some say that the water stones cut faster, but I can't really say that I notice any difference. I have no idea how they make the water stones. I would guess that the old stones were blocks of shale or similar materials. I would guess that the newer ones are some sort of sifted material, or electrostatically selected grits, and would be more uniform in grits. Still trying to figure it all out, and looking for more ideas. The quest goes on....

robo hippy

[andy bessette]

...I do have one water stone, but haven't even gotten it wet yet...



The problem is lack of experience with water stones. Learn to use these properly and you will understand the need for them.

Andy, your comment wasn't really any kind of answer at all, and if you can, give an explanation...

I cannot answer this for you. You must put in the time it takes to try it, learn, and decide for yourself. It is a process. I use a diamond tool to touchup blades in the field, just to keep the job going. You have the water stone; get it wet and see for yourself what you have been missing.

[Jim Koepke]

As I get more experienced, I may be able to feel those differences. Agree that I do need need more experience. As near as I can tell, my chisels are sharp enough to get results I want. I also have experimented with one plane blade that I sharpened on 220 grit plate, then stropped the burr off. It still cut fine, though required a bit more push to get the shavings, it sounded considerably different, and the resulting surface was not shiny like one taken to 16000 grit, so it still worked.

A blade that merely "still worked" compared to a blade that can take a shaving in the neighborhood of 0.001" are to very different things.

When you can make a shaving like this:

First Hock Shavings.jpg

You will know the blade is sharp. A blade that isn't sharp isn't going to be able to take a real thin shaving:

#65 On End Grain.jpg

Especially on end grain.

jtk