[OP]
Member
I'm finally getting into turning. Planning on mostly spindle turning initially, and I'm planning to buy the Rikon mini lathe deal that Lee Valley's running that comes with a set of carbide-tipped tools, but I also plan to get a couple more. I'm considering getting one of the Crown Pro PM tools I know they're pricey, but I dislike sharpening. What tool makes the most sense? Having no prior experience with turning, I'm not sure which tools tend to wear the fastest. Perhaps the roughing gouge?
Contributor
Items to splurge on for a new turner:
1 - Membership in a local turning club. You'll learn how to turn much more quickly if you have a mentor.
2 - An intro-to-turning class. Options here are plentiful. My first class was a half-day of instruction at the local Woodcraft store. Your local turning club may sponsor such classes for its members. Or, you may find one of the members of the club does classes in his or her own shop.
3 - Membership in the AAW. The AAW produces an excellent series of instructional videos targeted at new turners. I highly recommend them. Note: YouTube also hosts lots of turning videos. For now, I recommend staying away from YouTube. While there are some excellent videos to be found there, there are also an awful lot of videos that demonstrate unsafe turning techniques. As a newbie, you'll have a hard time discerning the difference. The AAW videos are great because they show proper techniques that produce a good product safely. In addition to the videos, the AAW journal is worth the price of admission. Each issue is filled with inspirational and aspirational content. Even better, as a member, you have digital access to the AAW's back catalog of prior issues. Lots of very good and detailed instructional articles on how to make a particular project.
4 - Get a good 8" bench grinder and a decent sharpening jig. There are lots of good jigs available today. We could debate endlessly about which jig is the best (Tormek!), but, let's not. Any of them will do to get you started. Yes, some day you may wish to learn how to sharpen freehand. I just don't think you should be trying to learn how to sharpen at the same time you're trying to learn how to turn. If you're new, it's hard to know if your poor results is based on what you are doing at the lathe or what you did at the grinder. A decent jig will help eliminate a lot of those questions. When getting a grinder, you'll want to out fit it with some decent wheels -- NOT the gray ones that come with most grinders. At a minimum, you want aluminum-oxide wheels. Even better, are a set of CBN wheels.
5 - Which turning tools to get will depend on what types of projects you'll be turning. With the Rikon mini that you're buying, I'm going to assume you'll be turning small spindle projects -- pens, bottle stoppers, Christmas ornaments, and the like. Given that assumption, this is what I would recommend: 3/4" spindle roughing gouge, 3/8" spindle gouge, 1/2" (or 3/4") skew, 1/8" diamond parting tool, and a thin parting tool (1/16" or less). That should be more than sufficient to get you started. You may have noticed that I didn't include any dedicated scrapers on the list. The set of carbide tipped tools that come with your lathe will cover that potential need. Also, the spindle gouge, skew, and wide parting tools can all be used in scraping mode. So, for small spindle projects, you may not need a dedicated scraper. If that need arises, get the tool then.
HTH
David Walser
Mesa, Arizona
Contributor
What David said.
Turning with steel tools inevitably involves frequent sharpening. Exotic steels reduce the sharpening intervals slightly, but the best results usually come from a slicing cut with a keen steel edge. Typical turning speeds are around 25 mph, so your edge is ploughing through material at nearly a mile every two minutes and dulling as it goes.
One exception is Hunter cup type carbide tools. They slice rather than scrape if used properly and the nano grain carbide holds a sharp edge for quite a while before it needs rotation. One of the straight tools like the Badger can do good work on spindles without sharpening.
If you get serious about turning though, you will wind up using steel tools, so you may as well resign yourself to learning how to sharpen them.
Last edited by Kevin Jenness; 12-01-2022 at 11:56 AM.
Contributor
If you're not going to sharpen, (I advise against) the carbide cutter is the most import part of the tool, the rest is just handle.
Buy quality carbide bits and toss them when they're dull.
Moderator
You might look at the Hunter tools. They use an extremely sharp small round carbide cutter that can work as a scraper or as a bowl or spindle gouge, cutting rather than scraping. You don't sharpen but replace the cutter when it eventually dulls - I used the first one for a couple of years before I replaced it. I like the small Hunter Hercules tool. These cutters are best for face work but good for some spindles, coves, tapers, etc. For fine detail a conventional spindle gouge is better.Originally Posted by Tyler Bancroft
I don't much care for most of the other carbide tools available. The surface is sometimes not so good.
IMO, the best thing is to learn to use the conventional turning tools. I highly recommend getting a good spindle gouge, I primarily use 3/8" Thompson gouges. But in the long term you really need to learn how to sharpen well (and it's not that hard). The old saying is if you can't sharpen, you can't turn. Yes, you can get by for a while or even a long time with carbide scraping tools but all of the better turners I know don't use them. All you need for a 1st rate sharpening system is a bench grinder (the so-called 1/2 speed or low speed is best), a gouge sharpening jig like the Oneway Varigrind, and the Oneway Wolverine that has a tool platform and also holds the gouge jig. I sharpened for years with standard AlOx grinding wheels but replacing them with CBN wheels is a big upgrade.
You are wise to start with spindles, even though that lathe will handle small bowls. Some people start by turning bowls from green wood and it's fun and so easy some don't (or can't) turn much else. Spindle turning will teach you the fine tool control that will let you turn anything, and turn it well.
My basic took kit for spindles, I think someone mentioned already:
- roughing gouge - I use them from 1/2" to 1", for roughing but also shaping spindles
- spindle gouge, most used tool for shaping and detail, 3/8" at least, 1/2" is nice for larger work
- parting tool - I prefer the classic "diamond" cross section style, 1/8"
- skew chisel, 1/2", 3/4", or 1" depending on the general size of the work.
For face work (bowls, platters, etc)
- a good bowl gouge and perhaps a Hunter tool
- NRS (negative rake scrapers) for smoothing
I strongly recommend learning the skew chisel. Many are afraid of it but if taught properly people love it. The skew is extremely versatile - I usually rough square blanks to round with the skew, then turn smooth and do initial shaping, great for peeling cuts, tapers, deep v-grooves, facing cuts, and more. When I teach beginners the first tool I put in their hands is the skew chisel.
I have a variety of tool brands (turning for over 20 years now) but generally stick to Thompson tools for all of the traditional tools.
Later, a few other tools will make it easier to turn things like small vessels, lidded boxes, and more.
I also highly recommend working with a mentor or and instructor, or a least a beginner class to get started. Mentors in turning clubs are usually free.
JKJ
Contributor
If you get serious about turning though, you will wind up using steel tools, so you may as well resign yourself to learning how to sharpen them.[/QUOTE]
This is a very correct statement. But if you have no desire to spend countless hours learning how to use and sharpen traditional tools,then obtain quality carbide tools and enjoy turning quickly. I started 9 years ago on carbide and discovered that I could do everything I wanted to do with them. The learning curve is very easy compared to traditional tools. Yes you will use a lot more sandpaper, a small price to pay to avoid the costs (and time) of a sharpening system.
All that said I finally invested in a sharpening system and some good traditional tools. (Mostly to learn something new in my older years) But the learning, while enjoyable, was a PITA and I always fall back to using carbides when the going gets difficult. The OP really needs to see both systems in operation and then he can make a decision based on his long term objectives, budget and available time. Other than that he is merely being exposed to our semi objective biases and egos, possibly becoming more confused than enlightened. If he lived near me Id gladly help him via demo and hands on training and Im sure that John Jordon and others would do the same.
Contributor
For sure, get started with the carbide scrapers that come with the lathe. You'll get immediate gratification and motivation to continue. Get some time in watching a good turner and see how much closer to a finished surface you can get with sharp steel gouges and skews - in spindle turning it can be impossible to improve a deftly turned detail with sandpaper and easy to destroy one. Then you can make up your own mind whether you prefer sanding or learning to sharpen and use traditional tools.
Last edited by Kevin Jenness; 12-02-2022 at 8:17 AM.
Contributor
Lots of good advice here, the only quibble I'd have is with the recommendations for small skews. There's very little that you can do with a small skew that you can't do just as well with a larger (1 to 1-1/4") skew, and for most people the larger skew is much easier to use without the dreaded catch because the sweet spot for cutting is so much larger. Part of Alan Lacer's demonstration on this topic is to make a 3/8" tall top using a 3" skew.
Moderator
"but I dislike sharpening. What tool makes the most sense? Having no prior experience with turning, I'm not sure which tools tend to wear the fastest. Perhaps the roughing gouge?"
I'd also recommend learning to use and sharpen conventional tools. It's not hard to learn and will give you more options. But to each his own.
If you choose to go conventional, I'd start with a spindle roughing gouge, then spindle or bowl gouges and a scraper. I second John's wise advice about the skew. It is versatile and precise. But it requires a precise and special touch. I think learning to surf with easier equipment first is preferable IMHO.
Member
If you do get serious about turning, then you need to learn to sharpen. Using jigs takes a lot of the guess work out of sharpening. It is really simple. Yes, you can do a lot with scrapers, and the Hunter tools which actually shear cut, but you still need to learn to use the standard tools. I use scrapers far more than most because I find them very efficient for heavy stock removal, but I don't have any carbide scrapers since my standard scrapers and the Big Ugly tool can do everything that the carbide scrapers do.
Join a club! Biggest learning thing of my career!
As for which tool needs to be sharpened the most, well, it is the one, or ones that you use the most.
robo hippy
Contributor
I'm curious by what you mean by splurge? Something not especially necessary for turning? Because splurging doesn't associate with necessary tools to do the job, unless you mean what tool should you buy of premium quality.
Contributor
If you can try out tools with another turner it may save you money and frustration in the end, but go with your gut - several turners swear by carbide scrapers. Personally, I agree with those that have recommended conventional tools and sharpening. I started with several carbide scrapers and after trying 2-3 small ornaments/dishes, I was so frustrated with the poor finish that I bought a Thompson skew and wolverine jig/8” slow speed grinder with AO wheel. I learned to use the skew by watching Alan lacer and Brian havens YouTube videos and it was so much more enjoyable than carbide. I later bought a spindle gouge and have kept adding tools as needed/desired.
Many people say the skew is scary/hard to learn but I think it was one of the easiest tools to learn. Starting with a skew, spindle gouge, spindle roughing gouge (not totally necessary as a skew can do the same job, but it’s easier with a SRG) and a thin parting tool and you would be set for most spindle turning (boxes, rolling pins, mallets, ornaments, etc.).
Good luck and let us know how it goes!
Tom
Contributor
Tyler I stared with a Jet1221 and an ezwood carbide tool, after mastering the scraper I moved on to great set of high end Carter tools, now daize ....75% of what I turn is with a cheap 1" skew
Moderator
Im not much for quibbling, but have to say I do often reach for small skews. I use skews from 1/4 to 1-1/4. The skews I use the most are my 1/2 skews, especially on thin spindles such as finials, conductor batons and wands, spinning wheel parts and the occasional special golf tee. These are lighter weigh and easier to maneuver than larger skews. I keep 1/2 skews in several skew angles and one with a curved edge.
My experience is the size of the skew has a lot to do with what is being turned. For example a large skew is indeed easier to use on a larger diameter spindle. I often reach for a tiny skew for delicate detail and to get into tight places, for example a short taper with higher walls on either side where a large skew simply wont fit. Years ago Frank Penta introduced me to some of the things done easier with a 1/4 round skew, one was turning small beads.
Also, it may sound contrary to everything we have read and have been taught and what I teach to beginners myself but cutting near the point is not a problem (I even color in the top half of the bevel with a red sharpie as a reminder to stay away!) Using the top half of the skew is not what causes catches in planing cuts but being careless is. I often use the top half, especially on thinner spindles. It does require care and good control to keep the point out of the wood. And by spreading the wear over more of the edge the tool stays sharper longer!
The long point itself is, of course, about the only thing that touches the wood on a v-groove and facing cut, especially deeper cuts. The problem there is failure to maintain the tiny angular clearance needed to keep the rest of the edge away from the wood - all the cutting is done with the first tiny bit of edge at the point, maybe 1/16 or less. Its easy to do it wrong since its hard to see whats going on and one wrong touch and bam!. (I teach v-grooves with a large 3 wide wooden skew mockup and a giant spindle with a deep v-groove - much easier to illustrate the clearance needed.) I think deep v-grooves are sometimes more easily made with relatively small skews. (Just for fun I once modified a skew to make a v-groove catch-less skew - they all scoffed and called me delusional or untruthful, but it really works! Useless for pealing cuts though )
A smaller skew is also good for a other special cuts, things not normally thought of as skew cuts. Mark StLeger illustrated some, with the reminder that a skew has more than 1 useful cutting edge!.
BTW, I usually put my smaller tools, such as 1/4 skews and spindle gouges, in relatively short handles - easier to maneuver and easier to control, especially in tight places. Like almost all of my tools, metal inserts hold the tools with set screws so I can adjust how much of the tool extends from the handle. I dislike using tools with shafts longer than needed.
JKJ
Contributor
unfortunately there are probably more than a few that can't joint or attend local turning clubs but youtube videos are a great alternative.....It's about time John K Jordan did a Skew Video
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