Oliver 166 jointer - upgrade to helical or replace machine?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I don't really see the purpose of a brake. If someone gets injured (which we hope they won't) on a jointer the damage will happen in a split second, and it will then be too late to benefit from stopping the head quickly. I suppose it is safer to have it spinning for less time after you're done using it, but with a guard that shouldn't make much difference either, I imagine. I kind of wanted a bandsaw with a brake so that I didn't have to wait as long to move things between cuts, but on a jointer that wouldn't seem to me to be a factor.

I don't have a 166, so I'm stuck with a 16" Felder, poor me, but it of course has an electronic brake. Honestly I agree with you, it's interesting to see that cutter stop so fast, but it's not really a big deal with the jointer. The Felder slider stops quicker though, and I do love that. Awesome for repositioning quickly and clearing off cuts safely. Completely different workflow than a jointer though.

[Bill Dufour]

If the VFD is set to only run at 60Hz the motor is fine. The only possible problem is of you run it above 60 HZ. The oft quoted acceleration/decleration time is 3 seconds or longer for the average machine with no big spinning mass. I would go longer on a heavy jointer head at high rpms. 5-10 seconds seems good.
Bill D

[Andrew Hughes]

My head takes 5 mins + to stop spinning but it does vary with weather 100+degrees with full-size knives it will take almost 6 mins. I like it because sometimes I switching back and forth between the bandsaw and the jointer. It’s a smaller inrush when the head is turning.
I did my homework on jointers before I restored mine.
Oliver’s Head has a 36 degree hook angle so get my t1 knives sharpened at 42 degrees. 12 degrees clearance between the heel of the knife and the wood is very good For most domestic woods that I use.
The insert heads have the carbide insert with a 30 degree facebevel and small radius and I think some like a 6 degree tilt.
The face bevel acts like a chip breaker it’s scooping and scraping at the same time. Something only carbide could deal with.
I have a bryd head in my planer just to be clear I’m not against them completely. Just the hand fed machine the “Hand planer and jointer”.

[joe maday]

If the long spin down time is the worry..why not have piece of scrap wood next to the jointer and after turning off the machine you joint it's edge to slow/stop the head from spining?

[al ladd]

I don't understand how anyone who's working with wood to make a living in a small shop can contemplate spending that kind of money just to get the sort of features (a brake on a jointer?) being talked about. if you frequently work with figured wood any helical head will transform your abilities and save hours and hours of knife sharpening and changes.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I don't understand how anyone who's working with wood to make a living in a small shop can contemplate spending that kind of money just to get the sort of features (a brake on a jointer?) being talked about. if you frequently work with figured wood any helical head will transform your abilities and save hours and hours of knife sharpening and changes.

I'll bet that there are not many making a living with woodworking who seek out highly figured lumber for their products. That is the enviable realm of the serious amatuer who has other motivations than profit. As a pro, I could maybe justify a used 6" import jointer in my shop as it's never used for anything but edges, and rarely at that. If I'm using a jointer for a project, I've probably screwed up a design and am now losing money on that step. I'm lucky to have a felder from the hobbyist period before I had to start using my tools for a living but I would never even try to justify it on a pro budget.

[Kevin Jenness]

I would stick with the Oliver. The history and old iron mystique are nice, but the main thing is you know the beds and fence are true and on a new one you will be stuck with what you get. Nothing is more important on a jointer than flat surfaces. A new machine won't run any smoother or give you better results than the one you have with a head upgrade. I am fine with straight (carbide) knives, no brake and the porkchop guard on my 16" machine, and I have never felt 3hp was insufficient.

The most convenient guard I have used is the modified porkchop style with a wood/leather tambour section that folds down the side of the jointer as it opens up. I believe they are available - someone here (Brian Holcombe ?) posted about ordering one within the last year or so.

[Patrick Kane]

My VFD is also set to 7-8 seconds to stop my jointer cutterhead. I found it to be adequate and safe. Honestly, 5 minutes is long enough for it to slip your mind and potentially do something dumb. I can see a reason for wanting it to come to a stop in under 30 seconds. If i dont manually brake my bandsaw, it will go for minutes as well, and it is very silent with ear protection on. It sets the stage for an accident with multiple people in the same shop.

I see plenty of value in a pro getting the machine he wants. Sometimes it's not all about the most efficient use of every dollar. If it makes you happier to be in the same space, safer, 0.5% more efficient at the work you do, and you just like looking at it, then that should be enough. Also, if the professional isnt going to splurge on machines, then who should? The Hobbyist that will use it to 1/10th its capabilities? Hes making money with the machines, he should spend a lot more on tools than i do. I never understood the shops in my area that scrape by with the absolute bare minimum of tooling. Im not advocating for every shop to immediately go to a $500k CNC. In the same breath, i question the cabinet shops running a 40 year old pm66, 6" jointer, and light duty grizzly/delta/powermatic shapers. Ive personally seen plenty of those businesses locally, and i think there is a better way of working. It might take years of managing finances and budgeting to get there, but it will be better off in the long run. The difference between what the OP has and what he wants is $5000+/-. In the scope of his remaining 20-40 year career, is that much of anything? Thats the equivalent of making and selling 6-7 large end grain cutting boards for the next 5 holiday seasons.

My last example, and then ill shut it. I tossed and turned on spend multiple thousands on a used Felder sliding saw 5-7 years ago. I ended up buying it, and the very first project i used it on was this massive end grain walnut island commission. 5" thick and maybe 30-36" by 60". It was a $2,000+ commission, and that saw made the process 10x better. The crosscuts for the final end grain glueup were stupid easy with the rip fence as a bump stop and the sliding table. More importantly, the end grain strips were dead nuts on identical to one another. Over the course of 30-40 repetitive crosscuts out of a blank, it's easy for things to start to skew and your glueup is off by 1/16"+/-. Long story short, it made my life easier(less wear and tear than schlepping a huge 8/4 blank onto and over a unisaw) and my work was better for it. I would have had more profit for the year had i kept my unisaw and not bought the Felder.

[Jared Sankovich]

Is hermance (or whoever took over after they sold the head business) back to finally building heads?

I prefer straight knives on my jointer, so if I ever upgraded a tersa would be it.

[Mark Gibney]

Thanks for that perspective Patrick.

I put a Hermance head into my EMA 16" jointer, and I'm very happy with it.
Setting the straight knives on the older head was difficult, and I would avoid it, ending up with dull knives.

I never contemplated buying a completely new machine and selling the EMA, so I cannot speak to the OP's question other than to say in hindsight that if I was making the decision now I would do as I did, and keep the machine I have.
I've put a lot of work into restoring it and I feel a bond with it, when I look at it I get that dopamine hit of knowing the machine "in and out" as Jonathan says, and that I'm responsible for how well it works.

[Phillip Mitchell]

The practical difference between a well tuned Oliver 166 + ($400) VFD (for braking) + ($3,000) whatever aftermarket cutterhead you like -VS- a brand new SCMI that also has a brake and nice cutterhead (~$13,000) is really not much in my opinion. Not really the same comparison as a unisaw and sled vs a felder sliding table saw or cabinet shops who choose to run older, less industrial equipment. The 166 is just as good at jointing and flattening boards as anything new, IMO. Jointers are not machines that really benefit from bells and whistles beyond flat tables, good fence and quality cutterhead. The cutterhead and braking variables are “fixable”.

Businesses get by with older or “lesser” equipment because it probably does the job at hand just fine for them and upgrading affects the bottom line and sometimes owners might want to consider going on vacation/taking time off instead of having shinier machines around? I know many cabinet shops that barely even use a jointer (or don’t) and only deal with S4S material and that seems to suit them fine. Not the type work that I do in my small custom business and I’m thankful for a nice 12” jointer that sees a lot of use close to capacity.

We obviously all have different opinions / perspectives and Jonathan opened the box by asking the question looking for other feedback. From a business POV I have a hard time seeing the value and ROI on a brand new $13k + jointer when you have a top tier machine currently that you know to be good, also know mechanically and can upgrade for an additional ~25% of the cost of a new machine to essentially equal that new machine in function. Selling the Oliver and going for new would probably put you down ~ $10k after deducting the sale of the 166.

If you just want to look at a new machine, then that’s kind of another thing and seems more of a personal move as opposed to a business decision. Just my opinions, but I have approached this from both the hobby / tool acquisition disorder side as well as the professional / business side.

[Bob Falk]

I’ve used old jointers with brakes. I think the main use was to get a guy out who never learned how to tuck in a shirt -tail.

Or, perhaps for multiworker shops to prevent spinning blades in unattended machines?