Dust Collection for tools with 2 1/2" ports

[Michael Jasper]

Hi - I know there are a million threads and reviews on this, and I've read most of them, but still find myself with a dilemma.
Currently, I use a Rigid shop vac with a hepa cartridge plus dust deputy for all my dust collection. (I also have a Jet air cleaner). This has worked reasonably well with a couple exceptions that will surprise no one.
My shop vac is on its last legs (over 20 years old), so I'll be replacing it soon. I've added some tools in the last couple years and figured this was the time to decide whether to stick with my current strategy.

In terms of limitations - space is by far the biggest issue. I have pretty good electrical service to the shop, including enough 220V capacity for up to about 10-12 additional amps. Money is a factor - but not as much as space.

I thought about going with a small dust extractor (eg Festool) and a cannister dust collector - but when I thought through my tools, I realized that the majority have 2 1/2" ports. I'm thinking using a dust extractor with 27mm hose will be worse than a shop vac for those, and a high volume, low pressure DC might not work well with the 2 1/2" ports. Given this situation, would you all recommend just sticking with a shop vac? Will a cannister DC work well on tools with a 2 1/2" port or do I need at least 4" to get the benefit? I'd prefer not to have a large shop vac AND a large dust collector due to space considerations. I don't really need a shop vac for heavy duty clean up other than from woodworking. A cannister DC and smaller dust extractor would work from a space point of view - but will that leave me with a big performance hole for the mid-size machines?

Here's what I have now. Given space, about the only thing I can imagine changing in the near future is going to a larger/better table saw.



Tools with 2 1/2" Port -

1. Dewalt jobsite Table saw
2. Router table with Bosch router*
3. Benchtop Belt and Spindle Sanders
4. 9" Band Saw - Grizzly
5. 6" bench top Jointer - Grizzly (currently using dedicated 5 micron bag)

Tools with smallerthan 2" port

1. ROS
2. Biscuit Joiner
3. Routers *
4. Miter saw built-in port ****

Tools with 4" Port

1. Laguna 14" Band Saw (does reasonably well with shop vac but could be better)
2. Dewalt benchtop 13" Planer (currently with dedicated 5 micron bag)
3. Big gulp to catch dust from miter saw, drill press, handheld tools with no dust port, etc **

*tools where current dust capture is less than optimal.

The big question is whether I can replace the shopvac with a cannister DC given this set of tools.

Note I thought about the Oneida super cell which seems like it might be ideal. Reasons to avoid it are: 1) Very expensive for what it is, 2) Requires a dedicated 220V circuit (17 A at 220V) and 3) max CFM around 450 - so not sure how that would work something like a big gulp collector or DIY miter saw hood.

Thanks!

[Thomas Wilson]

The Oneida Supercell is like three Ridgid vacuums running in parallel. It generates high vacuum and decent air flow. It works well 4” main with 2 1/2 drops. It is also noisy and not cheap. It could probably be your only dust collector and save space.

[Michael Jasper]

Yeah, after doing some more research and specifically noting the max airflow through a 4" port, I realize the supercell might be ideal for me - but given that it still wouldn't replace a high volume DC in the future, I can't convince myself it's worth the cost (plus the additional circuit I'd need). If it could also do the high volume DC-ing, it might be worth it - or if the price was more in line with other compromise solutions. And it could share a 220V circuit with another tool. Or if I didn't care about cost at all.

[Michael Jasper]

I'm starting to lean towards replacing the Shop Vac with a Fein Turbo 1 (plus dust deputy), and perhaps I can eventually make room for an inexpensive wall-mounted DC in the future.

I'd really appreciate any input on whether a high volume, low pressure DC would work better than a shop vac on something with a 2 1/2" port like the router or table saw.
Thanks!

[Aaron Inami]

I have personal experience with using a small 2.5" hose on a traditional dust collector. It basically performs like crap and the CFM as well as static pressure is very poor (almost nothing). To get a good result from a 2-1/2" hose, you would have to go very high end, like a big 5HP Oneida or Clearvue or a Laguna X|Flux: 5.

It's true that the Supercell will not replace a high volume dust collector. However, it is significantly better than a shop vac. Shop vacs have a very high suction, but they will only provide around 100-190CFM which makes them a poor solution for high volume.

The Supercell is likely a happy medium if you can only buy one thing. The specs indicate a static pressure suction level that is equal to the dust extractors like Fein/Festool, but the Supercell has significantly more CFM capability. This would yield a better result on your 4" tools. Be aware that there are two models for Supercell - one that is wall mounted only and the second hat has a mobile frame. Like others have said, the Supercell is just as loud as a shop vac.

The benefit of the Festool/Fein and other dust extractors is the ability to adjust the suction down to a lower level. Some tools, such as hand sanders, actually perform better with less suction. You may also want to turn down suction on some of the routers as well.

[Michael Jasper]

I have personal experience with using a small 2.5" hose on a traditional dust collector. It basically performs like crap and the CFM as well as static pressure is very poor (almost nothing). To get a good result from a 2-1/2" hose, you would have to go very high end, like a big 5HP Oneida or Clearvue or a Laguna X|Flux: 5.

Thanks that is very useful info.
I agree about the supercell - I just can't justify spending easily 10x as much as the Fein to get something perhaps twice as good, and knowing I'll still need a separate DC later.

[Aaron Inami]

Yeah, the Supercell is expensive for what it is. It would be less expensive to get a $950 Festool vacuum and then a $1300 Powermatic PM1300TX 1.75HP conventional dust collector and you would end up with superior results.

This article may be useful for you:

https://www.toolboxbuzz.com/head-to-...-head-to-head/

The Fein Turbo did rather poorly in CFM tests, but it was good in static pressure suction tests. Also, please be aware that the Makita that tested so good in this article is the old model (VC4710) which is no longer available. The new Makita is model VC4710L, which is the same exact machine as the Milwaukee (which tested middle of the road).

I would pay particular attention to the CFM chart which shows how the different extractors perform with both "empty" and "full" bags.

[Brian Gouldman]

I went with the Supercell in my small 20x12 shop for specifically the reasons you mention. I’m still in the process of outfitting my shop for regular use, which a newborn has significantly slowed the progress of, but so far I love it. No regrets whatsoever. I plan on getting some hard pipe from blastgateco soon so I don’t have to keep moving around the absurdly heavy and cumbersome flex hose it comes with.

If you were so inclined, you could probably build your own DIY version of the supercell with the 4” steel dust deputy. The Supercell is just 3x 1300 watt 220v Domel vacuum motors wired together. You can get them from European sellers or even the replacement kit from Oneida. The Supercell just neatly packaged it into a motor/filter housing that sits on top of a custom cyclone, and includes some nice mounting brackets. So it saves a lot of time and comes with customer support when bought as a package. But the parts that really do all the work can be bought off the shelf and rigged together with time and ingenuity.

[Michael Jasper]

Yeah, the Supercell is expensive for what it is. It would be less expensive to get a $950 Festool vacuum and then a $1300 Powermatic PM1300TX 1.75HP conventional dust collector and you would end up with superior results.

This article may be useful for you:

https://www.toolboxbuzz.com/head-to-...-head-to-head/

The Fein Turbo did rather poorly in CFM tests, but it was good in static pressure suction tests. Also, please be aware that the Makita that tested so good in this article is the old model (VC4710) which is no longer available. The new Makita is model VC4710L, which is the same exact machine as the Milwaukee (which tested middle of the road).

I would pay particular attention to the CFM chart which shows how the different extractors perform with both "empty" and "full" bags.

Thanks - I read the article. I was surprised by the results on the Fein model given the consistently good reviews it seems to get.
Also - my impression was that all the Festool dust extractors are essentially the same other than volume of the "tank". So if I'm going to use a dust deputy, would I get similar results using the smallest Festool model that goes for $400?

Finally - my impression was that the Festool uses much smaller hoses - can it work with a 2 1/2" standard vac hose? Wouldn't using a hose half that size reduce CFM?

Thanks

[Michael Jasper]

Thanks Brian. I'm curious what tools you're using the supercell with (or plan to use it with) and what size ports those have.

[Aaron Inami]

Yes, I would say the static pressure is the same on the Festool as it is on the Supercell. They come in at about 90-93" water column static pressure. A normal conventional high volume dust collector may be able to get 16" WC static pressure.

Yes, all the Festool models have the same turbine and suction power except for the small mobile CT-SYS (which has 17% less suction). The larger CT26/CT36/CT48 models provide slightly more CFM because they have a filter that has 35% more surface area (i.e. less restriction for air flow -- this is exactly why the older Makita model performed so well). I have the CT48 model that comes with a 32/36mm diameter hose (this starts out as a 36mm diameter at the vacuum and then tapers down to 32mm in the last 4-5 feet). I found that a straight 36mm works better for CFM than the 32/36. The smaller 27/32 hoses are fine for sanders, but not enough for saws and stuff. You can get up to a 50mm diameter Festool hose if you really need that much CFM.

You can use other hoses on the Festool vacuum, like the Bosch VAC005 or the Fein hose. By the way, the Fein hose is only a 30mm diameter (1-3/8").

[Brian Gouldman]

Thanks Brian. I'm curious what tools you're using the supercell with (or plan to use it with) and what size ports those have.

So far I’ve used it with my Dewalt miter saw, track saw, and modified DW735 with direct dust hood I got from an Etsy seller.

The miter saw chute is cloth and completely overpowered by the suction. I had to make a replacement out of flashing sheet metal. It catches a good amount, but it’s no fancy miter station hood. I have no plans to have a permanent miter in my shop given my space limitations. I’ll use a jig saw, bandsaw, something else to rough dimension lumber once the shop is setup. I mostly use the miter for remodeling and other carpentry.

On the track saw it catches basically 100% on a regular cut. On an edge cut it obviously struggles, but any vac would hear. Same problem as an edge cut on a table saw without an overhead collector.

The planer I have the Byrd head in and the custom hood that collects directly overhead from the cutter head. Barely anything escapes. This is a 4” port.

Other tools I will eventually have in here include floor standing drill press, Hammer B3 shaper/saw, and Hammer A3-26 jointer/planer. The later two I believe both have 125mm ports with are between 4-5”. I’m not sure of the port size on the shaper hood tbh. I also might eventually wall mount a Onefinity CNC on the wall beside the Supercell, which I think it would be perfect for that application as well.

I do have some concerns about secondary dust collection at the source. Specifically if I install an overhead saw arm or say the collection from the shaper hood. Both situations would have the Supercell collection from two ports. I won’t know how this turns out for many many months. The B3 doesn’t even get delivered till February, and it might sit in my garage for a while depending on where I’m at with the rest of the build. But I’ve decided that if it’s not up to par with what I’m ok with my plan is to get a Festool CT-Sys and CT-VA, stack them together, and mount them on the wall out of the way and they can hook up to those couple sources.

[Larry Frank]

Brian....can you post some pictures of your DW735 dust hood. Sounds interesting.

[Brian Gouldman]

I don’t have any photos handy atm, but if you look up “explosiveworkshop” on Etsy you will find the maker/seller. They designed and 3d print the custom hood. I have no affiliation with them other than having bought one of hoods myself.

[Michael Jasper]

All of this is helping a lot!
One piece I'm still not clear on though is hose diameter with shop vacs. Specifically, even though the vacs are high pressure, wouldn't the narrower diameter houses on the festool units reduce cfm on a tool with a 2.5 " port? I read that the Fein will take a standard shop vac hose even though it comes with a smaller one. I wondered if that was also true for festool. The latter seem to be designed specifically for hand tool use where the ports are smaller. If i can't use a 2.5 house with the festool, I assume cfm on something like a table saw will be more limited.

As I understand the physics here - putting it in ohm's law terms -- CFM is essentially current, Vacuum (in water column) is essentially voltage, and resistance is a combination of tube diameter, length and any obstructions.

In practice, large CFM is not critical for something like a hand held sander, thus the smaller hoses are acceptable and easier to handle. But for something like a stationary tool with a 2 1/2" port where I'd like to maximize air flow (CFM), given a fixed vacuum/suction (determined by the dust extractor), maximizing hose diameter between the extractor and the tool is important, unless I'm misunderstanding something. At this point, my options, in order of cost, seem to be:

1) Rigid shop vac (recent Pro model, like the 16gal stainless steel model) - 2 1/2" hose (max CFM around 175 according to specs) $200
2) Fein Turbo - comes with smaller hose but will accept standard shop vac 2 1/2" (max CFM around 150 according to specs, but much less according to that Toolbuzz review) <$400
3) Festool CT15 - max hose size = ? (max CFM 130 according to specs) $400
4) Oneida Dust Cobra - pricey and requires a dedicated 110V circuit (max 245 CFM) $1200
5) Oneida Supercell - even more pricey and requires a dedicated 220V circuit (max CFM 465) $2700

Note - this is for home woodworking use. Hepa is nice but not critical.