Change of the Era

[James Pallas]

When I started this thread I was thinking about how we loose tools and methods of work. I like hand tools as much for learning to use them and exploring methods. I enjoy exploring old furniture and old houses, and buildings to see what the inside and the backs look like. It seems to me that for years hand tool workers have been trying to match machine work. In the past there was no machine tool work. Woodworkers tried to match the work of those that did fine work. There is lots to explore in hand “no electrons”tool work .
Jim

[Derek Cohen]

Jim, currently, an experienced and advanced woodworker will use a range of tools to do the work without sacrificing creativity, construction, and detail. The factor that we are concerned about in this thread is whether we will lose the "hand guiding the tool". Hand tools epitomise workmanship of risk, as defined by David Pye. The very opposite of this is not the use of power tools (which are somewhere in the middle), but the use of CNC and other computerised equipment, where the risks are in the computer programming, and not the use of hands. I imagine that in the future "Made by Hand" will come to mean "made without CNC". Unhappily, I suspect that the future of professional furniture, with the exception of the few high-end makers, making lies with computers, since anything less will be uneconomic. This may increasingly influence the amateur market.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rob Young]

From David Pye's "The Nature and Art of Workmanship" :

"workmanship using any kind of technique or apparatus, in which the quality of the result is not predetermined, but depends on the judgement, dexterity and care which the maker exercises as he works"

This is his definition of "workmanship of risk" as opposed to "workmanship of certainty" which is what he likened to mass production. The levels of workmanship are what are different, or at least have the greatest potential for difference, e.g. good vs bad.

"The danger is not that the workmanship of risk will die out altogether but rather that, from want of theory, and lack of standards, its possibilities will be neglected and inferior forms of it will be taken for granted and accepted."

He points out that good workmanship (again, he hasn't defined HOW the workmanship is accomplished, only that it exists in cooperation with design) will improve a design while bad workmanship will magnify the difference between intent of the design and results.

Elsewhere in the book (I need to go find my copy again!) he discusses how this applies to both the creation of jigs and appliances to make produce the end result and the production of that end result.

So my simple interpretation is that the workmanship of risk encompasses the use of hand tools and power tools, with CNCs being an extension of power tools. Use what you have and be happy. Learn to use more (tools) and also be happy.

[Derek Cohen]

“He points out that good workmanship (again, he hasn't defined HOW the workmanship is accomplished, only that it exists in cooperation with design) will improve a design while bad workmanship will magnify the difference between intent of the design and results.

Elsewhere in the book (I need to go find my copy again!) he discusses how this applies to both the creation of jigs and appliances to make produce the end result and the production of that end result.

So my simple interpretation is that the workmanship of risk encompasses the use of hand tools and power tools, with CNCs being an extension of power tools. Use what you have and be happy. Learn to use more (tools) and also be happy.”

Rob, I think you and I interpret “Workmanship of Risk” very differently. Using CNC does not involve any risk in any form. Power tools, when involving a fence to guide work, or when a hand tool is guided in a fixture or jig, does not constitute “workmanship of risk”. Hand held power tools and hand tools used without supports constitute workmanship of risk.

I do not see an issue in using guided power tools, but even this is still vry different from CNC, where no hands are involved.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[chris carter]

The entire problem is that the general public (right or wrong) perceives stuff built by hand with neander tools as higher quality, or at least more desirable, than stuff made with power tools. Notwithstanding, of course, the cost of acquisition (ie. purchasing the item from the seller, or buying the tools and learning the skills to do it yourself). And stuff made with power tools is more desirable than stuff made by CNC (mass production notwithstanding). So we get into a marketing game here. Whether it’s something made to be sold, or something made and shown to family and friends, there’s an incentive to push the description toward the former and away from the latter. You see this all the time on Etsy or in small higher end furniture shops. By way of example, how many times have we seen the phrase “hand cut dovetails” highlighted in a description of an item for sale that was otherwise made completely with power tools? There is no functional difference between machine cut and hand cut dovetails – unless you are making 1/16” pins or you aren’t making them all the same. 99.9% of consumers are completely incapable of identifying hand cut vs machine cut dovetails. So why put it in the ad? Because it makes the piece more attractive to the buy and thus more likely to sell, or sell at a higher price. Same thing with “hand planed,” etc.

[Jim Koepke]

The entire problem is that the general public (right or wrong) perceives stuff built by hand with neander tools as higher quality, or at least more desirable, than stuff made with power tools.

My folks had a furniture store. Customers would always ask my dad why his oak roll top desks cost so much more than some of those in other stores in the area.

He had no problem with visiting his competition and seeing what they were offering. The inexpensive roll top desks were often from overseas, made of particle board or plywood and covered with oak veneer.

He ordered one from one of his suppliers to display next to a solid wood oak roll top desk so he could show customers the difference. More times than not, after the explanation and having the customer lift the inexpensive unit first and then the oak unit, they would still opt for the less expensive piece. (many of them couldn't even budge the light end of the oak desk)

For many people price is too important. They would rather have some flash now than an heirloom for their grandchildren.

jtk

[Rob Young]

“He points out that good workmanship (again, he hasn't defined HOW the workmanship is accomplished, only that it exists in cooperation with design) will improve a design while bad workmanship will magnify the difference between intent of the design and results.

Elsewhere in the book (I need to go find my copy again!) he discusses how this applies to both the creation of jigs and appliances to make produce the end result and the production of that end result.

So my simple interpretation is that the workmanship of risk encompasses the use of hand tools and power tools, with CNCs being an extension of power tools. Use what you have and be happy. Learn to use more (tools) and also be happy.”

Rob, I think you and I interpret “Workmanship of Risk” very differently. Using CNC does not involve any risk in any form. Power tools, when involving a fence to guide work, or when a hand tool is guided in a fixture or jig, does not constitute “workmanship of risk”. Hand held power tools and hand tools used without supports constitute workmanship of risk.

I do not see an issue in using guided power tools, but even this is still vry different from CNC, where no hands are involved.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Yes we are.

There is risk associated with the use of power tools or specifically in this discussion, CNC. Things fail. People make mistakes, software glitches. Hence the risk.

Pye's definition includes the use of jigs and appliances. And I don't remember a strong differentiation between hand and power tools so long as they are applied toward producing a result that meets or exceeds expectations of the design. Given his skill in carving I would however assume that he prefers hand tools for that purpose. But in the preparation of materials? In the joining of parts of a carving or other furniture piece? A mix and match of hand and power tools perhaps.

There is planning and forethought involved in using a carving chisel. There is planning and forethought involved in using a power tool. There is planning and forethought involved in using a CNC. Different planning of course, but planning none the less.

Properly applied, any tool is the right tool. Properly applied and in the right sequence, mixing and matching hand/power/CNC will produce an end result that acceptably implements the design.

And hands are most definitely required in the preparation of a CNC, its setup, preparation of material, maintained and programming. But this does not make it a hand tool. On that we do agree.

[Derek Cohen]

Rob, you are s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g to make your argument

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Edward Weber]

I believe I’m seeing the change of era. I see lots of references to bandsaws, table saws, power drills, jointers, powered routers, planers, ros’s. In todays world is anything that is not CNC, or somehow AI controlled considered a “hand tool”. Maybe neanders are becoming bronze agers.
LOL
Jim

This is the definition of hand tool that I subscribe to.

Hand tool means, hand-held equipment that depends on the energy of the worker for its direct effect and that does not have a pneumatic, hydraulic, electrical or chemical energy source for its operation;

So no, battery operated drill/drivers and everything else that requires charging are not a hand tool in my book. If something and/or it's battery need to be plugged in or connected to an air line, etc., then it's a powered tool.

[steven c newman]

There are some out there...that even using electric lights is "taboo"......

I am a Hybrid Shop....whatever someone else wants to use in THEIR shop, that is entirely their call. I try to use the "correct" tool for the tasks at hand....according to what is IN MY shop....could not care less what is in, or not in someone else's shop. My shop is in a basement, not some Ivory Tower set in the 1600s.....get real.

Are my Projects "Hand made"? Well, without my hands doing the work..the work won't get done, now would it.

At the other end from the Candle Power shop...there are some that say if your shop does not have at LEAST $25, 000 in tools, you just can't be a serious woodworker.....

Here is a thought......why don't we all just go back and work IN our shops? Bad Chest Cold not withstanding, I still meander to the shop, from time to time.....if for no other reason than to sweep the floor, and put the tools away....and thumb my nose at them Ivory Towers......

[James Pallas]

This is what I mean by change of an era. You can claim to be what you want and no one can challenge it. An example is the world’s environmental expert is a 15 year old that no one dare question. So you are what you claim. I can do a project all without touching any wood. Than claim all handmade because my fingers touched a keyboard. LOL
Jim

[Rob Young]

Rob, you are s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g to make your argument

Regards from Perth

Derek

I don't believe I am. He makes no distinction between hand and power tools or the use of jigs and appliances.

Ordered a replacement 2nd hand copy of the book. I looked and looked last night and couldn't find my copy. Sinking suspicion I loaned to to somebody and never got it back.

[Derek Cohen]

Rob, I think that you are confusing the fact that Pye used machines as well as hand tools. That he used machines must not be interpreted that he equated their use to hand tools. His book was about examining the different roles and the different ways in which tools are used. and the skills each required.

As I wrote earlier, there is skill required in using machines, as there is skill required in working by hand. There is no stigma attached to either. There is risk with each, but a different risk.

Pye defines the workmanship of risk as “workmanship using any kind of technique or apparatus, in which the quality of the result is not predetermined, but depends on the judgment, dexterity, and care which the maker exercises as he works”.

CNC is definitely predetermined. Table saw cuts are predetermined. Jigs are all about predetermining the result. Sawing by hand and paring free hand with a chisel are not predetermined. They are the workmanship of risk.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

My workmanship of risk often gives me a nice warm feeling as the evidence of failure is consumed in my living room wood stove.

My theory on why master woodworkers didn't use bandsaws, table saws and CNC in the 18th & 19th century is because the machines didn't exist then.

jtk

[Christopher Charles]

Interesting discussion. Jim, I think you're on to something. Perhaps we are in a third era (all overlapping), defined by the digital control/repeatability given by CNC i.e.,

-pre-power tools,
-power tools
-CNC (=digital jigs)