Seeking cabinet construction opinion

[Jacob Canady]

(First off, if I'm in the wrong section please let me know/move the post. Second, I hope my pics are too big...I'll try to resize if so.)

Hello everyone,

Long time reader, first time poster. I've learned quite a bit from several threads and people here and I'm very grateful for all the great information here.

A little backstory as to why I'm seeking opinions on cabinet construction: I just wrapped up a pretty big job for a well-respected contractor I've never done work for before. The remodel was a "squeeze in" type of remodel and called me needing cabinets pretty fast. Knowing his reputation, I couldn't say no. He wanted all prefinished plywood for the boxes, and since he wanted them fast, we just used pocket screws.

We had everything built for him in 2 weeks. Then things went sideways with 2 month delays, changes, etc. We started installing, and after everything got painted, the GC comes in and starts picking apart all sorts of things on the install. Hard not to be devasted when a GC with a reputation like his is picking apart your work. He told me I was making everyone look bad and that really got inside my head!

SO...I'm second guessing every single thing I've done on this project. The upper cabinet construction is keeping me up at night, worrying things will fall apart and come off the wall. Below is a picture of how we build the boxes. We use a 1/4" back with 4" nailers across the top and back. Two pocket screws on each side of the nailer connect to the sides, and the top/bottom are pocket screwed into the nailers as well. No glue, just butt joint pocket screws. Face frames are glued and pocket screwed onto the front.



We've never had a box fall apart with pocket screws but I wanted to get the opinion of whoever on here is willing to contribute. Do you guys thing 2 pocket screws on each side of a nailer will be strong enough to keep the box together?

We also had to build a hood last minute, on site. We used a similar technique, except the front of the hood has a solid piece of plywood so we could nail shiplap to it. This one has 6" nailers and I think we did 3 pocket screws on each side of the nailer. Below is how it was built (we needed to leave space for 2x4 blocking for the hood insert:



Anyways, sorry for such a long first post. I'm just feeling pretty bad about everything because of the GC, even though the final result turned out pretty good in my opinion. Below are some pics of the finished cabinets, for those interested.

[mreza Salav]

SO...I'm second guessing every single thing I've done on this project. The upper cabinet construction is keeping me up at night, worrying things will fall apart and come off the wall. Below is a picture of how we build the boxes. We use a 1/4" back with 4" nailers across the top and back. Two pocket screws on each side of the nailer connect to the sides, and the top/bottom are pocket screwed into the nailers as well. No glue, just butt joint pocket screws. Face frames are glued and pocket screwed onto the front.



We've never had a box fall apart with pocket screws but I wanted to get the opinion of whoever on here is willing to contribute.
Do you guys thing 2 pocket screws on each side of a nailer will be strong enough to keep the box together?

Jacob, I feel sorry to say this but I would personally never trust 2 pocket screws from each side holding an upper cabinet. A pocket screw from the nailer board into the sides?! that has a maximum of 5/8" depth into the side!!!
For my own house I used solid backs and screws from the sides to the back (2" screws). I tried grabbing the bottom of an upper and swing myself without any worry about the cabinet falling.

[Jonathan Jung]

I completely know where you're coming from. I too have lost sleep over such worries about jobs. My gut tells me you don't have a lot to worry about. That said, I can't really see, since your pictures aren't coming through for me. What ply did you use? The weak point will be the laminations of the nailer, unless you used solid wood, then the weakness is the screw into the sides, which is quite strong, being a lateral force. Are the backs set in a groove? This changes the situation. Also remember that the majority of force on those screws is vertical, because the cabinet wants to slide down the wall, not away from it.

All the cabinetry in my work trailer has been held together just with pocket screws, no glue, for 4 years and nothing has fallen apart. It was more of an experiment. I thought it wouldn't hold up, but years later and I haven't had a reason to rebuild any of it, it still works.

[Bryan Hall]

How is the top/bottom secured to the sides? I dado the sides and slot the top/bottom in, glue, pocket screw, then the nailer is pocket screwed in while also being secured to the top and bottom of the cabinet so it's connected in several ways.

I wouldn't feel good about it either, but TBH I continue to be shocked by what doesn't collapse in use. I just ripped out some old particle board cabinets and there wasn't a spot of glue on them, no screws either. I was legitimately able to just pull the faceframes off and pull the boxes apart piece by piece while they were on the wall. Scary, but they had been functioning for a very long time like that without issue.

[Jacob Canady]

Thanks for all the replies! It's horrible losing sleep over something like this for sure. Had I known I would have had a 2 month delay I would have spent more time on the box construction.

Anyways, sorry the pictures aren't coming through. To answer your questions Jonathan, I used 3/4" birch plywood for the sides, top, and nailer. The 1/4" backs are set in a groove. The backs connect to the nailers via the 3" installation screws.

Bryan, there are technically two bottoms on these uppers. The GC had a weird request to have a finished 3/4" bottom, and then a 3/4" void, and then a 3/4" panel that the dishes will sit on. So, the finished bottom panel is pocket screwed into the sides. But the other bottom panel where the dishes sit is glued and dadoed into the sides. The bottom nailer is pocket screwed into that bottom panel. On the cabinet sides that are not visible, I drove screws in as well. The top is pocket screwed into the sides and the nailer. So the whole system is pretty well screwed together I guess.

Mreza, interesting you mention the depth of screw into the plywood. We've done a fair few modular cabinet installations and those suckers are built with a handful of brackets and tiny screws into 1/2" plywood! And lots of people around here have this style of cabinet.

[Kevin Jenness]

The boxes could be stronger, but I don't think you have anything to worry about with the back dadoed into the sides, top and bottom screwed to the sides and nailers, nailers screwed to the sides and (presumably) screws through the back and nailers at least 1" into the studs. If you're losing sleep go back and put a couple more screws into the studs. When you are fastening through a reasonably solid back as well as the nailers the boxes are not going to fall off the wall. Chin yourself on one of your standard boxes and settle the issue for yourself. If you honestly feel the way you did it is too weak, pull the uppers and beef them up or rebuild them.

Is the GC questioning your construction methods or other issues? Did you get paid? Was he familiar with your work prior to signing you up? What is he comparing your work to? If he is really down on your workmanship you may not be able to salvage the relationship but you should at least get a detailed punchlist and work it out as best you can. In the future, make sure the specs are understood and agreed to on both sides before starting work. Rush jobs that lead to cut corners don't help anybody's reputation.

[Jacob Canady]

The boxes could be stronger, but I don't think you have anything to worry about with the back dadoed into the sides, top and bottom screwed to the sides and nailers, nailers screwed to the sides and (presumably) screws through the back and nailers at least 1" into the studs. If you're losing sleep go back and put a couple more screws into the studs. When you are fastening through a reasonably solid back as well as the nailers the boxes are not going to fall off the wall. Chin yourself on one of your standard boxes and settle the issue for yourself. If you honestly feel the way you did it is too weak, pull the uppers and beef them up or rebuild them.

Is the GC questioning your construction methods or other issues? Did you get paid? Was he familiar with your work prior to signing you up? What is he comparing your work to? If he is really down on your workmanship you may not be able to salvage the relationship but you should at least get a detailed punchlist and work it out as best you can. In the future, make sure the specs are understood and agreed to on both sides before starting work. Rush jobs that lead to cut corners don't help anybody's reputation.

I definitely have at least 1" into the studs. It should be closer to 1.5", I went with 3" screws to be safe.

Regarding the GC...that's a can of worms for sure, but he never questioned the construction methods. It was more questioning layout/design type stuff. I had to bid based on someone else's drawings, which were pretty much already OK'd by the homeowner. Since everything was so rushed and last minute, I didn't get much of a chance to redesign. So for example, the GC didn't like that I used "modular" type dimensions. One wall of uppers worked out to have 3 36" wide cabinets in a row. One base cabinet didn't have a big enough spacer (according to him) between the wall and the door, so it "messed up his baseboard." I had to go back and reskin the toekick after the floor guys were done, because they didn't get the floors right up to the cabinets. So he just continually made me the fall guy, even though he had an extra 2 months to look over the drawings and ask me to make changes. He was comparing the work to other cabinet guys he uses who do lots of work for him and know exactly what he wants. I've been paid and told the owners to just call me if they want anything adjusted and to not get the GC involved. It's all been worked out with the GC and he really does do nice work, but I had no idea he was so hard to work with. Oh, and no, he wasn't familiar with my work because signing me up. All in all just a really wild project.

Ultimately, if he were to call again and ask me to bid on a job, I'd have to think pretty long and hard about it. We had headaches with this GC that we've never had before.

[Bryan Hall]

The questions begs to be asked, what happened to his other cabinet team, why did they vanish, why did no other cabinet team he worked with want to step up and take the project? Why did they need everything done immediately, and then the project fell apart?

From the outside looking in it sounds like there's more issues with that GC than their reputation would make you think. As such, I wouldn't beat yourself up over it.

[Jacob Canady]

The questions begs to be asked, what happened to his other cabinet team, why did they vanish, why did no other cabinet team he worked with want to step up and take the project? Why did they need everything done immediately, and then the project fell apart?

From the outside looking in it sounds like there's more issues with that GC than their reputation would make you think. As such, I wouldn't beat yourself up over it.

Well, I'm more concerned about the structure of the upper cabinets, but you guys have eased my mind a bit regarding that. Not the best way to build a cabinet, but certainly not the worst. I actually installed some Home Depot cabinets earlier this year and was pretty surprised they even sell them the way they do. They're basically cardboard.

Regarding those questions, I can answer most of them. His other cabinet team was never involved. I guess the owners ended up going through 3-4 construction companies for their remodel but they all ultimately bailed on the project because it was "too small for them." (For reference, I had to build about 110 feet of cabinet. Not a small job for me at least.) So they finally went with the GC in question because they knew he'd take the project on. So, I'm not sure where the initial cabinet drawings came from or why that cabinet company vanished. I assume they were tied to one of the other construction companies. I don't know why the other cabinet team this GC uses didn't step up and take the job, but after picking up the deposit check and seeing the GC's whiteboard, he has about 10 other jobs going right now. I have to assume his other cabinet team is tied up with all those jobs. As I understand it, everything needed to be done immediately because of timing with the permit. Something to that effect, I'm honestly not sure what the rush was. All I know is the owners are NOT happy that there was such a big delay where nobody from the GC's crew was working on the house. I had everything built and ready to install according to the timeline I was given, and then I sat for 2 months, continuously getting install dates pushed back.

I had to push back 4 other jobs because I kept getting told "next week." He doesn't really operate on written contracts so there was a lot of scope creep. I finally buttoned up the install and told the GC I needed a check because I'd given him my full attention for 4 months and I have other people who need work done.

Anyways, the owners are very happy with their cabinets and I'm feeling better about them not falling apart.

[Bryan Hall]

Well, I'm glad you got paid and it sounds like there are some good lessons learned here. I hope you never go through that again!

[Jacob Canady]

Thanks Bryan! And I agree, lots of lessons learned. Lots of growing pains!


I have to admit though, I don't quite understand how having a dadoed 1/4" back on a cabinet adds much strength to the box. I get how the top screwed to the nailer and the sides adds strength, as it basically ties all those components together into one, but when you guys say having a dadoed 1/4" back changes everything, I don't see how. I've got modular cabinets in my house and they have 1/4" backs and I can push on the backs and flex them! What am I missing?

[Bryan Hall]

Thanks Bryan! And I agree, lots of lessons learned. Lots of growing pains!


I have to admit though, I don't quite understand how having a dadoed 1/4" back on a cabinet adds much strength to the box. I get how the top screwed to the nailer and the sides adds strength, as it basically ties all those components together into one, but when you guys say having a dadoed 1/4" back changes everything, I don't see how. I've got modular cabinets in my house and they have 1/4" backs and I can push on the backs and flex them! What am I missing?

I personally don't rely on the 1/4" back to add anything of measurable value. Especially since I screw the top and bottom nailer off which are married to the top and bottom. None of my shop cabinets have ever had backs, I didn't dado any part of them (to test strength) and just butted, screwed, glued. I have beat the heck out of them for years and never had even a hint of failure.

[Jonathan Jung]

Glad you got paid and can have some breathing room! Cab backs in dados in all 4 sides means the dados would have to give out before the cabinet would come off the wall, if the screws are secure to the wall. I never use nailers, I think they look cheap. I use 1/2" ply backs in dados for upper cabs and that's it. Screw through the back into the wall, finish with a recessed fastcap.

[andy bessette]

Because of the design it gives the overall appearance of a low budget, DIY job.

[Kevin Jenness]

"He doesn't really operate on written contracts so there was a lot of scope creep."

That's a recipe for trouble. If the builder and client signed off on the drawings that you built to I don't see any grounds for complaint, but it's important to get that all on paper and keep track of any changes.

"I don't quite understand how having a dadoed 1/4" back on a cabinet adds much strength to the box."

If the back is fitted tight it will keep the box square. A bead of hot melt or some pins, staples or screws would increase the rigidity further. The dadoes and nailer screws would have to blow out for the cabinet to come off the wall.

For simplicity I use 1/2"backs without nailers. If you don't mind the weight you can decrease waste by making the backs and sides the same thickness.