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Thread: Dovetail guru influence question

  1. #46
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    the result is not only fine looking joinery, but one that is implemented faster than setting up a guide.
    The being faster without using a guide was my reason to abandon trying to use a guide on dovetails or sharpening.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  2. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    The issue I have with a guide is that it stops you thinking about what you are doing. It combines a few steps into one. The end result may look good, and that is fine if all you want is the end result as quickly as possible, but if you want to learn a skill - one that may be generalised to other forms of joint cutting - then you need to look at what you are doing, break it down into small bites, and deal with each in turn. This is actually quite easy to master - I have written about it many times - and the result is not only fine looking joinery, but one that is implemented faster than setting up a guide.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

    Derek, I don't disagree with the premise of breaking the process down to its basic elements but saying things like "quite easy to master" is an individual viewpoint. If it were that easy, we wouldn't be having yet another discussion about how to cut a few millennia old joint.
    For some, it can be extremely difficult. The same can be said about "faster than setting up a guide" this is simply not true for everyone.
    Jigs and guides can be used like training wheels, they don't stop you from thinking about what you're doing. On the contrary, they force you pay attention and to follow where and what you should cut. Guides are just that, guides, they are not foolproof. They are more of a teaching tool than anything else you can use them until you've reached a point where you no longer need them.
    i'm not advocating for or against them, only that there should be no stigma with using them.
    JMHO

  3. #48
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    One can only hope that the pendulum starts to swing away from all the joinery being exposed. There was a time when exposed dovetails, other than on drawers which aren't really exposed at all, would have been considered crass.

    However you cut them, use what you need to -- guides or whatever, do try to resist designing everything around the fact that you've managed to learn to cut a creditable joint. That stuff can be a real yawner. This is akin to every idiot that owns a chainsaw mill thinking he's going to be the next Nakashima. You'll have a breakthrough in dovetail cutting, and you'll probably go through your "dovetail period" where you can't wait to show the world that you're a world class dovetailer. Just don't let the next fifteen years revolve around that fact. Let nuance and restraint be the order of the day.

  4. #49
    Here here, Charles. Sage advice.

  5. #50
    I've always thought they language we use in discussing joints misleads. I'm sure the OP can, in fact, make a dovetail joint. He may not be happy with how it looks, but first and foremost should always be does the joint work in its intended use. The rest is just a matter of learning to find your own acceptable level of refinement.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Rathhaus View Post
    I've always thought they language we use in discussing joints misleads. I'm sure the OP can, in fact, make a dovetail joint. He may not be happy with how it looks, but first and foremost should always be does the joint work in its intended use. The rest is just a matter of learning to find your own acceptable level of refinement.
    I can and really have been impressed with how they’ve come out. The reason I asked the question is two fold. First, out of curiosity of how y’all’s skills developed. Second, I’ve played around with variations of how these various personalities teach it and, with many dovetails between my next two projects, I’m trying to decide on how to approach them. I’ve always assumed I’d take ‘the best’ of each person I’ve learned from but I’m a little concerned that I’d get into it and run up against some little incongruity that would set me back. I’m taking the DTC as a chance to get my skills zeroed in since it’s been a while but maybe also to try some things from Cosman that I’m curious about*.

    * Two things - using the offset marking technique based on the width of the saw & doing the tape wall he now recommends.

  7. #52
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    Rob Cossman's method is pretty meticulous and organized in a precise method.

    I learned the Paul Sellers method in Waco, Texas, and is what I use now. I will emphasize that a sharp chisel solves a whole host of problems. Also some wood is more forgiving than other kinds. To me, pine is terrible and being so soft, likes to crush and smoosh together. Black walnut is like carving soap or a potato with nice clean cuts. A joy to use.
    Regards,

    Tom

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Weber View Post
    Derek, I don't disagree with the premise of breaking the process down to its basic elements but saying things like "quite easy to master" is an individual viewpoint. If it were that easy, we wouldn't be having yet another discussion about how to cut a few millennia old joint.
    For some, it can be extremely difficult. The same can be said about "faster than setting up a guide" this is simply not true for everyone.
    Jigs and guides can be used like training wheels, they don't stop you from thinking about what you're doing. On the contrary, they force you pay attention and to follow where and what you should cut. Guides are just that, guides, they are not foolproof. They are more of a teaching tool than anything else you can use them until you've reached a point where you no longer need them.
    i'm not advocating for or against them, only that there should be no stigma with using them.
    JMHO
    Edward, I am aware that we have a range of standards, from beginner to expert, in woodworking. It is wonderful that we have a stream of newcomers joining in. My message about using guides should not be read as absolute, and there are many different types of guides, some of which are used by those at the highest levels.

    Personality comes into all this as well. While we share a love of woodworking and building, which is why we are here, there are many tastes in furniture (if furniture making is your bag), preferences for hand- and power tool use, the choice of joinery (as Charles points out), and how to make this …. the list is long. The issue of personality is about the motivation or drive to master skills. Some make the effort, and some do not.

    For myself, I take a rather more (but not exclusive) traditional approach to building furniture. I love using handtools, but supplement them with machines. The machines do waste removal … grunt work … not shaping, if I can help it. I enjoy the challenge of joinery by hand. I am not afraid to make mistakes, as the next challenge comes from correcting and hiding it. Bottom line: I enjoy challenges, and on these pages seek to inspire others to do the same. That is why I stand up against unnecessary guides and jigs.

    There are some essential guides and jigs. Sawing slightly away from a line, and then using a guide block to pare to the line has been part of high end Japanese joinery for centuries. This is not the same as sawing the joint with a guide block. In the former, one is eking out the last bit of accuracy to make a compound joint fit together. In the latter, one is removing all risk (read David Pye on the Workmanship of Risk).

    The fear of screwing up is really only dealt with by mastering the action involved. You can only do this by taking the risk of sawing by hand. Consequently, I encourage others to do so whenever I can.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  9. #54
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    There was a time when exposed dovetails, other than on drawers which aren't really exposed at all, would have been considered crass.
    From many sources it has been claimed the woodworkers for centuries made their tool chests with the intent of showing off their dovetails. The tool chest was like a portable portfolio. Good joinery and impressive construction was more likely to garner employment.

    The fear of screwing up is really only dealt with by mastering the action involved.
    Au contraire, our mistakes is one of the things from which we learn. As you said:

    I am not afraid to make mistakes, as the next challenge comes from correcting and hiding it.
    After learning how to hide or repair mistakes we will likely find our skills improved. Learning what is wrong and correcting it is possibly as important as getting it right. Being able to figure what went wrong if and when something doesn't come out right is what separates the better workers from the lesser workers in many walks of life.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 09-21-2022 at 2:32 PM. Reason: The last sentence was rewritten
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Edward, I am aware that we have a range of standards, from beginner to expert, in woodworking. It is wonderful that we have a stream of newcomers joining in. My message about using guides should not be read as absolute, and there are many different types of guides, some of which are used by those at the highest levels.

    Personality comes into all this as well. While we share a love of woodworking and building, which is why we are here, there are many tastes in furniture (if furniture making is your bag), preferences for hand- and power tool use, the choice of joinery (as Charles points out), and how to make this …. the list is long. The issue of personality is about the motivation or drive to master skills. Some make the effort, and some do not.

    For myself, I take a rather more (but not exclusive) traditional approach to building furniture. I love using handtools, but supplement them with machines. The machines do waste removal … grunt work … not shaping, if I can help it. I enjoy the challenge of joinery by hand. I am not afraid to make mistakes, as the next challenge comes from correcting and hiding it. Bottom line: I enjoy challenges, and on these pages seek to inspire others to do the same. That is why I stand up against unnecessary guides and jigs.

    There are some essential guides and jigs. Sawing slightly away from a line, and then using a guide block to pare to the line has been part of high end Japanese joinery for centuries. This is not the same as sawing the joint with a guide block. In the former, one is eking out the last bit of accuracy to make a compound joint fit together. In the latter, one is removing all risk (read David Pye on the Workmanship of Risk).

    The fear of screwing up is really only dealt with by mastering the action involved. You can only do this by taking the risk of sawing by hand. Consequently, I encourage others to do so whenever I can.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

    Derek, I don't really think we are that far apart.
    The only point I was trying to make is that "guides" come in all forms and shapes. It's up to the individual to determine how and when to use them or not.
    When you mark out your dovetails, you use some type of straight edge as a guide for your pencil. Some may use their thumb as a guide when beginning a cut and so on. Guides and jigs are all around, whether you recognize them or not.
    Not everyone wants their joinery to be a challenge, as you put it. Some are simply looking for an aesthetically pleasing end result. A simple saw guide can help them towards this end.
    Also, guides are not foolproof, you can still make errors and learn from them.

    Working primarily with hand tools should not preclude the use of guides jigs and fixtures, you simply can not "freehand" everything. Woodworkers for thousands of years have been using and improving all kinds of devices to hold the wood or cutting blade securely to improve their work.
    I suppose everyone has to determine for themselves where they see a distinction between a normal method of work and what would be unnecessary guides and jigs, as you call them.

  11. #56
    I’m a heretic. When I have a lot of dovetails to do, I use a dovetail jig and router. Skill and experience are needed for machine dovetails too.

    In the hand tool shop, I use guide blocks, miter saws, magnetic saw guides. Nothing is sacred when it comes to achieving accuracy. My method is largely my own, but I do like the layout method using a pair of dividers. I probably first saw it years ago in Fine Woodworking. I never used it until I took a class from Megan Fitzpatrick. She includes tricks to fix mistakes which are helpful.
    Last edited by Thomas Wilson; 09-21-2022 at 12:49 PM.

  12. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Wilson View Post
    I’m a heretic. When I have a lot of dovetails to do, I use a dovetail jig and router. Skill and experience are needed for machine dovetails too.

    In the hand tool shop, I use guide blocks, miter saws, magnetic saw guides. Nothing is sacred when it comes to achieving accuracy. My method is largely my own, but I do like the layout method using a pair of dividers. I probably first saw it years ago in Fine Woodworking. I never used it until I took a class from Megan Fitzpatrick. She includes tricks to fix mistakes which are helpful.
    I agree that when you have a lot of dovetails to do - with the same setup - a dovetail jig is the way to do it. For example, if I were building drawers for kitchen cabinets, I'd definitely use a dovetail jig. The drawers are a standard size so for one setup, I can do most of them.

    But if I'm doing drawers for a chest of drawers, I'll do them by hand. Each drawer is usually a different size (biggest at the bottom) so you'd have to go through a setup for each drawer. Also, for something like a chest of drawers, I want to show that the dovetails are hand cut. Anyone who knows dovetails can easily identify machine cut dovetails. I want to "show off" to the generations that will use that chest of drawers I made for my niece (for example).

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  13. #58
    I have always followed Rob Cosman’s approach to the craft of dovetailing for quite a number of years (from the DVD days).

    As an aside, this past week I bought one of his dovetail markers with the saw kerf - wanted to give that gimmick a shot. Yesterday at lunch my phone rings with a call from New Brunswich. Thinking it was a scammer I answered hesitately. It was Cosman calling thanking me for the order…I was shocked and very pleasantly surprised. I thanked him for the Purple Heart Veterans work that he has going on. More small businesses should do more calling on customers like that, it will garantee that I will at least look at there product offering.

  14. #59
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    More small businesses should do more calling on customers like that, it will garantee that I will at least look at there product offering.
    Possibly the best way to have a customer remember a business is to give the customer a warm feeling of being remembered by the business.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  15. #60
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    My method I learned myself.

    It generally involves carefully marking everything and then STILL winding up with two sets of pins or tails, or pins/tails matched up to the wrong piece, sometimes even having been carefully fitted first.

    How I manage to do it every time, I still don't know. I guess I'm just that good.


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