Record has it on their blades, or at least used to. Both the angle stated in degrees, and a line to set something by.
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Record has it on their blades, or at least used to. Both the angle stated in degrees, and a line to set something by.
[OP]
Member
After running to the web to check various plane’s bevel angles, Ive been writing the appropriate degree notation on each blade.
A similar visual has infected my bike repair world too. Now everything has become color coded so that I can more easily grab the right wrench, the first time.
I can’t imagine 4 bevels on a plane. Way too complicated for me to want. Seems like you might spend more time managing your blades than actually creating something.
I’ll start w/ moving the chip breaker back a bit more to see if that helps. Then will read the tea leaves of shavings.
-PD
If your chute doesn't open, you have the rest of your life to fix it.
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Charlesworth advocated three bevels, four only if you had a back bevel on the blade. However, the first of those was only from the grinder so only two would be regularly dealt with and the last was the one honed. It’s not that difficult to deal with in practice and the goal is to achieve sharpening fast as you have much less steel to move.
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I just thought I would remind some people who may be over thinking this.
From the Veritas pdf.
"In a bench plane, the blade is used bevel down, so the bevel angle has no bearing on the cutting angle. This is determined by the angle of the bed which, in this case, is 45°."
This is where i'm in agreement with Jim Koepke, where he says "get the plane to work without worrying about secondary bevels or any other "tricks.""
Secondary bevels, micro bevels, relief bevels are something you can always tweak later, after you get the basics working.
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Peter, having determined now that this is not a Custom Veritas model, I would treat it like your Stanley #4, with the exception that it has a thick blade.Originally Posted by Peter Daniels
The items to focus on are the (1) mouth size, (2) blade sharpness, (3) shaping and (4) positioning of the chipbreaker (assuming that the mouth/sole are flat/coplanar … as I have not come into contact with a Veritas plane that is otherwise).
1. If you have a closed up chipbreaker, then the mouth needs to be opened up a little - enough to allow shaving to pass through. When the chipbreaker is closed up, it is easy to block up the escapement and prevent shavings passing.
2. Thicker blades require a different technique for sharpening than the original, thin Stanley blades. With the thin Stanley blades one can use a honing guide, or just freehand, a single bevel. Thick blades would be hard work to do the same (too much steel to abrade), and then the danger is that they do not get honed correctly. With thick (non-laminated) blades you want to "create" a thin blade. You do this either by hollow grinding or by using a secondary bevel.
I hollow grind all my blades (with the exception of Japanese blades) at the angle they will end up. This is between 30-32 degrees. The grind is taken to the edge of the blade. This leaves very little steel to hone. I then freehand hone on the hollow, with acts as a guide. I start with 1000 grit, straight across until there is an even wire and micro bevel. Then I add in the camber on this stone (a few strokes at each end). Once done, this is followed with 6000 and 13000 stones, which polish the cambered edge. Done.
If you choose to use a honing guide, remember that the aim of one is to add a secondary bevel (never use it on the full face). This will be at a higher angle than the primary bevel. For example, the primary bevel may be 25 degrees, and the secondary bevel created at 30 degrees. I do not change the bevel angle for subsequent stones, that is, all remain at the 30 degree angle (in other words, no multiple tertiary bevels). Always watch for the wire - that is your gauge that the honing has reached the back of the blade. Of course, the back of the blade needs to be honed to the same degree as the front.
3. Chipbreakers need to be shaped. They all come with a 25-degree leading edge, and this is too low to influence the shaving/performance of the chipbreaker. Get out your honing guide and create a 50 degree secondary bevel. It is fine to leave this secondary bevel flat. Also ensure that the underside of the chipbreaker is flat, and that there is no gap between chipbreaker and the back of the blade for shavings to jam into ….. anything that jams the chipbreaker with jam the mouth/escapement, and stop the plane cutting.
4. Positioning the chipbreaker can make-or-break the performance. Too close to the back of the cutting edge, and the plane will experience too much resistance when pushing the plane. This is evident in concertina-like shavings. Too far back and the chipbreaker has no effect at all (shavings are generally curly). The Rule of Thumb is to position it around 0.4mm from the edge, and adjust its position after a few trials. After a while, it is easy to do by eye. The position of the chipbreaker also depends on the thickness of the shaving. Move the chipbreaker further forward for very fine shavings, and further back for thicker shavings. You can tell the chipbreaker is working nicely when the shavings straighten up.
Note that the chipbreaker is unnecessary if the wood being planed is straight-grained. It is used for controlling tearout.
A local woodworker, Daniel, came to visit me with the same issue as you. He was struggling to plane a very interlocked Jarrah slab (for a table top) with his Stanley #4. In his case, the blade was okay, but his sole was not coplanar. In the meantime, he used my Lie Nielsen #4 1/2 (after a Veritas Custom #7 jointer). With little effort, this was the result he obtained (note the long, straight shavings) …
Regards from Perth
Derek
Last edited by Derek Cohen; 09-15-2022 at 12:24 AM.
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This post just made by Derek may be the best post made to date on this Forum. It should be a sticky at the top.
Contributor
I agree, Derek is very clear in describing his methods.
The one draw back that occurs to me is:
Derek mentions using a grinder and describes the advantages of a hollow grind. From what the Peter mentions it sounds like he may not have a grinder.I’m considering putting the time into just making the Veritas match the Stanley’s 25°. But since that’ll take some time at the diamond stones, I’d like to know what’s best before I stand there for too long.
This is a common challenge when trying to answer questions posed on a forum. We often do not know the starting point from which the question is asked. We do not know the range or types of stones involved. We do not know if Peter has a strop?
My deductions may be completely wrong. My first impression is the OP is using diamond stones. Not really sure what metal is in his blade. Is it PMv-11, A2 or O1?
A 35º bevel is about the most I have ever used on a bevel down plane. Now mine are 25º or 30º and seem to do fine.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
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Jim, I have this covered. If one cannot hollow grind a thick blade, then you use a secondary bevel (either freehand or using a honing guide). As I mentioned, there are two ways to make the thick blade work like a thin blade when it comes to sharpening.Derek mentions using a grinder and describes the advantages of a hollow grind. From what the Peter mentions it sounds like he may not have a grinder.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Contributor
Well stated, I am not very familiar with the Veritas bench planes. Are their blades thick? I may be misinformed but my impression was they are only 1/8" thick. Thicker than a Stanley blade, but not as thick as those on many of the bevel up "bench" planes.
Discussions on sharpening always seem to meander all about and much of it is based on the original inquiry not providing as much information as is needed to provide an informed reply.
My opinion on secondary or micro bevels is after a lot of honing, they are either no longer a micro bevel or quickly becoming the primary bevel. What started as a way to speed up the sharpening process will eventually have to be reground. The time saved on one operation is then lost on another.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
[OP]
Member
Outstanding! Great read to sip my coffee as the day starts. Thank you all.
True- I am using diamond stones. I’m sure there’s a grinder somewhere in a friends garage. Or more likely a grinder that is used to put an edge on a ski (I live in a ski town) that would be liquid cooled and such. But, I’ll hold off on that now.
There’s no way the mouth is closed enough that the shavings are hanging up or catching.
To start- I’ll move the chip breaker back a bit. Perhaps 1.5mm from the cutting edge.
And depending on how that goes, I may take the time to use the stones to go to a 25° angle like the Stanley.
And I’m split on the micro bevel. Perhaps I’ll start w/o it. See how it goes, then try to to see what changes.
I work nights and often find my brain crawling over such things around 2 in the morning while I drive around.
Thanks for the brain fodder.
-PD
If your chute doesn't open, you have the rest of your life to fix it.
Contributor
Besides all the great advice here, there was one item you mentioned that got me to thinking - and I paraphrase; you said you were having trouble adjusting the blade for cuts liek the Stanley.
I've just sold my Veritas #4 while waiting for the Custom #4, (delayed 2 weeks.......AGAIN!!) but one of the first things I put into that plane was the slow adjuster. I found I could get much better results with the tiny tweak using that adjuster, rather than the OEM.
Now, if I misread, I didn't mean to lead you down the garden path, "ea culpa".
Once it Custom 4 FINALLY arrives, the first accessory I install will be the slow adjuster.
Young enough to remember doing it;
Old enough to wish I could do it again.
[OP]
Member
There’s a SLOW ADJUSTER!!?
Well, now I know.
I do think that was a portion of my problem. My fingers had been used to spinning the Stanley knob to move the blade forward and I was overdoing it w/ the Veritas.
So for a while I would just barely nudge it forward to get my first shavings. It helped- some.
I’ve been spending some spare time sharpening that Veritas blade to the 25° primary bevel that works on the Stanley. Funny how close it is to the 30. It’s taking forever w/ a 300 grit diamond stone.
But I’m gaining on it. Each day when I commit to it… the fall leaves and still open bike rides call me away from the bench.
It’ll be done soon.
-PD
If your chute doesn't open, you have the rest of your life to fix it.
[OP]
Member
This Veritas puzzle is a good one for me. It’s helped me find lots of ways to adjust a plane. But also lots of ways to puzzle and wonder why.
I’ve spent way too much time at the diamond stones reducing the Veritas blade from 30 to 25 degrees. What a slight difference in actual angle- but it sure took a while.
As a rainy afternoon turned to evening I was wondering if this coarse stone was actually coarse enough. But in time I got to where I wanted it.
And as long as I had the set up out, I went ahead and put the old Stanley blade to the stones too.
It’s not that the stone doesn’t work. It’s that the Veritas PM-V11 metal must be insanely hard. The Stanley blade must be much softer. The stones made short of of the STanely. Slow slow progress in the V11.
Long story short- I pulled out the test board. A knotty piece of weird walnut. And I carefully advanced the blades ever so slowly. Trying to just find that moment when the dusty spiderweb shavings become just a bit more substantial.
And now the Veritas works great.
Was it the new 25 degree angle? Or just a much more careful set up.
I don’t know. But I’ll stay at 25 for a few months and see where that gets me.
Thanks all.
I’m sure I’ll be back w/ more thoughts/questions. And I’m sure Sawmill will provide.
-PD
If your chute doesn't open, you have the rest of your life to fix it.
Contributor
Sounds like I'm too late, but a 300 grit diamond stone is not the right tool for a big job like reducing the primary bevel angle. It's not very fast to begin with and the stone will wear out a lot in the process. Save the diamond for odd jobs on HSS or carbide, and for conditioning other stones.
If you don't have a power grinder, I recommend getting a roll of 60 or 80 grit PSA sandpaper and sticking a length of that that down onto something reasonably flat. 2 or 3 feet long would be great. Then get one of the cheapy eclipse honing guides (this is about the only time I'd recommend a honing guide) set it at the angle you want, then go to town on the sandpaper with long strokes. Change the sandpaper every few minutes of honing. This will literally be orders of magnitudes faster than rubbing on a diamond stone.
If you want to use a stone for this sort of job, the best stone I've found for bulk material removal is a coarse Crystolon, which are fairly inexpensive. But the long sandpaper lap beats anything.
Regarding the angle, I can't tell exactly what you are doing. Are you making a single flat bevel at 25 degrees? Or "grinding" a primary bevel at 25 and then honing a small secondary bevel at some higher angle? The second is more typical and what I'd recommend for a thick blade in a wear resistant steel like V11.
To me 25 degrees is too acute for a final edge in a bevel down handplane. About 32-33 is ideal in my experience. We are trying to balance between two failure modes, one being the edge breaking or folding and the other being the edge losing clearance due to wear. Eventually one or the other will occur and we'll have to resharpen, but the latter requires far less work to rectify (especially if you don't have a power grinder). So the ideal angle is basically the most acute angle that does not fail by chipping or rolling. For most steels that will be between 30 and 35. Higher and you won't plane very long before losing clearance, lower and you'll get edge chipping and have to remove a bunch of steel to fix.
So whatever angle you are sharpening at, just observe what happens. If you notice chipping (split shavings are a sign of this) then raise the angle a couple of degrees at the next sharpening. If you never notice chipping, you can try lowering the angle.
[OP]
Member
Oh no- you are not too late Robert.
This self taught woodworking marathon is a long one, and your words will be dutifully tucked away for the next time I’m wondering about planes and angles.
Thank you for taking the time- it’ll be the sandpaper/glass trick next time I find myself wondering about more than just sharpening!
-PD
If your chute doesn't open, you have the rest of your life to fix it.
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