Planing against the grain

[Jason White]

Why does he hate shoulder planes?

Eh, I'd try it. Yeah, to me its like closing the mouth. Not a long term solution, but a quick fix. Paul Sellers taught at my woodworking school and we, in turn, were taught all things according to Paul Sellers, like apostles. He hates shoulder planes, so we didn't use them by way of example.

[Jim Koepke]

Why does he hate shoulder planes?

No idea here, a shoulder plane was the perfect tool for a quick & dirty box making project last week when removing waste from a cross grain rabbet on the end pieces.

They were were originally called "Cabinetmaker's Rabbet Planes." Someone started calling them shoulder planes and the name has been forever changed. Many folks find a sharp chisel much better for adjusting tenon shoulders.

They were advertised as being "designed for fine Cabinet Work where extreme accuracy is required."

-- From Patrick Leach's Blood & Gore

To me it isn't worth wasting time trying to understand some of Paul Sellers opinions.

jtk

[Tyler Bancroft]

Why does he hate shoulder planes?

Sellers is very dogmatic. The way his writing comes across is that there's a right way to do things, and it's the way he does them. It's a tendency that seems more pronounced recently than it was in his earlier writing. Personally, I prefer the approach of pragmatists like Chris Schwarz and Roy Underhill. It's a little unfortunate – I do like the style of some of Sellers' furniture (and I'm currently building a blanket chest adapted from some of his plans), but I think he can be offputting at times.

[steven c newman]

That is because of the way Paul was trained, as an Apprentice....by a Joiner named George. Not too many of us on this site can say they went through the same sort of training, can they.

There are times where one does NEED to plane against the grain.....usually, I just turn the plane about 45 degrees.. and peeling turns into slicing...instead of hitting it head-on....

Chipbreaker is set 1mm back from the edge of the iron....I do not close up the mouth of the plane....have NEVER had to file a plane's mouth , either. Have never found the NEED for those Extra thick irons....anyway.

Starting to sound like the usual "Dog-pile on Sellers" Shtick.... almost as bad as them Anti- Harbor Freight type of posts....

[Tyler Bancroft]

That is because of the way Paul was trained, as an Apprentice....by a Joiner named George. Not too many of us on this site can say they went through the same sort of training, can they.

There are times where one does NEED to plane against the grain.....usually, I just turn the plane about 45 degrees.. and peeling turns into slicing...instead of hitting it head-on....

Chipbreaker is set 1mm back from the edge of the iron....I do not close up the mouth of the plane....have NEVER had to file a plane's mouth , either. Have never found the NEED for those Extra thick irons....anyway.

Starting to sound like the usual "Dog-pile on Sellers" Shtick.... almost as bad as them Anti- Harbor Freight type of posts....

I don't think anyone would argue Sellers' talents as a cabinetmaker and woodworker. I've paid for access to his subscription site, and I won't deny I've learned things. That being said, there's a difference between saying "here's how I do this, and it works" and "here's the only right way to do this". He is very dismissive of tools and techniques that he doesn't use himself.

No Harbor Freight up here in Canada, so I remain neutral on that.

[Edward Weber]

I don't think anyone would argue Sellers' talents as a cabinetmaker and woodworker. I've paid for access to his subscription site, and I won't deny I've learned things. That being said, there's a difference between saying "here's how I do this, and it works" and "here's the only right way to do this". He is very dismissive of tools and techniques that he doesn't use himself.

IMO, this has become more of a problem with many of the woodworkers many follow these days.
If you disagree with any of their teachings in a forum, you get accused of all sorts of things.
No woodworker, no matter who, has all the answers and the proper technique for everything that is encountered in the realm of woodworking. Being dismissive of others tools and methods is simply closed-minded, no matter how you were taught or trained.
We all learned in some way from someone or even taught ourselves, but being open to new and/or different ideas and methods is how we grow as woodworkers. Many of us read forums for this very reason.

Disagreeing with Sellers, Schwarz, Cosman or any of the other usual suspects, is often a recipe for an unnecessary argument. If you agree with them and their methods suit you, that's great. If you don't, there are almost always countless other ways to achieve the same task that are just as valid. Planing against the grain is just one example.

[Gary Focht]

Sellers is very dogmatic. The way his writing comes across is that there's a right way to do things, and it's the way he does them. It's a tendency that seems more pronounced recently than it was in his earlier writing. Personally, I prefer the approach of pragmatists like Chris Schwarz and Roy Underhill. It's a little unfortunate – I do like the style of some of Sellers' furniture (and I'm currently building a blanket chest adapted from some of his plans), but I think he can be offputting at times.

I have never read or watched Paul Sellers and came away thinking he said his way is the only way. He does forcefully espouse his methods, but he often explains why he prefers that method. He does admit that there are other ways to accomplish a task, but I think he wants the reader/viewer to try his method and then choose whatever works best for them.

He does not use block or shoulder planes, near as I can tell. He cleans up tenon faces with a router plane and shoulders with a chisel. He has no particular need for a shoulder plane.

I think it is incumbent on each woodworker to choose whatever method works best for them. Why the need to align so strongly for or against a particular teacher and/or his methods? I am thankful there are just so many to choose from and enjoy learning from each.

[Jim Koepke]

I think it is incumbent on each woodworker to choose whatever method works best for them. Why the need to align so strongly for or against a particular teacher and/or his methods? I am thankful there are just so many to choose from and enjoy learning from each.

It may not be the methods as much as the attitude of a particular teacher. Some are rather arrogant in their manner of teaching. Some are more down to earth.

Some will only tell their viewers to do this, this and this while the others will explain why to do this followed by this and what to do if something goes wrong.

jtk

[George Wall]

I have never read or watched Paul Sellers and came away thinking he said his way is the only way. He does forcefully espouse his methods, but he often explains why he prefers that method. He does admit that there are other ways to accomplish a task, but I think he wants the reader/viewer to try his method and then choose whatever works best for them.

He does not use block or shoulder planes, near as I can tell. He cleans up tenon faces with a router plane and shoulders with a chisel. He has no particular need for a shoulder plane.

I think it is incumbent on each woodworker to choose whatever method works best for them. Why the need to align so strongly for or against a particular teacher and/or his methods? I am thankful there are just so many to choose from and enjoy learning from each.

Paul Sellers does make a concerted effort to minimize the number of tools that he uses in his project builds. And he does periodically go off-piste and show alternative methods. For example, in one of his recent projects, he cut out the dovetail waste with a coping saw; he normally just uses a chisel. I've seen him pare tenon cheeks using a chisel in some cases, a router plane in others. And he frequently does say "if you don't have this tool, you can always use this other tool instead". I've even seen him use a block plane once, and he actually commented about how rarely he uses one.

His earlier video series were based on his classroom teaching, and his classes were geared mostly towards beginner-to-intermediate skill levels. So he likely did intentionally limit the number of methods he demonstrated. He no longer teaches classes, and he has tended to show more variety of techniques in his more recent video series.

[Edward Weber]

It may not be the methods as much as the attitude of a particular teacher. Some are rather arrogant in their manner of teaching. Some are more down to earth.

This is sometimes quite apparent, while some "instructors" are presenting something with strong opinions like sharpening.
You often hear something like, "sharpen however you want to". While at the same time, you can almost see the thought bubble over their head that reads, "if you don't do it exactly like I do, you're just wrong"

IMO, many who have gained a small amount of skills (less than 10 years) that then go on to present videos on YT, often seem to confuse self-confidence with condescending. The arrogance of "I know how to do this, you should listen to me" comes off as boastful, not knowledgeable.

Even those who are masters of their craft, don't always have the necessary skills to teach others.