Shaper selection

[Mark e Kessler]

So I am looking at shapers for my big Interior shutter job, 78 - 42”x7”x1” raised panel both sides and 34 same dimensions movable louvers in Qsawn Red Oak which will be painted by others.

After this job it will have low use and I mostly only do furniture sized projects, I do plan on trying to get some short run biz from local woodworkers/contractors like i do for widebelt sanding.

Tilting Spindle
I have it set in my head that I need a tilting spindle for longterm versatility but to tell you the truth not really sure it’s necessary and it limits the inventory of used shapers, is tilting something worth holding out for?

Sliding table
The last shaper i had was an scmi with a slider but it’s been so long I can’t remember the pros and cons, the one con that i can think of is running pieces that bridge the slider and cast, do you just shim the cast or is it not an issue? I don’t plan on doing exterior doors, possibly interior. Also there is the question of aluminum slider over cast iron slide is one preferred over the other?

Fence
I also have it set in my head that I want a memory fence (pins) and mechanical readout on both fences, My scm definitely didn’t have this so I have no real world experience if it’s worth having but sure seems like it, opinions?

Shapers
Used - Have been looking at Scm’s t110 and t130, the t110s won’t have the memo fence and haven’t found any with sliders. I have found a 2003 t130 with power feed for 5k, fixed spindle no slider. I could add a bolt on slider from scm but that adds another 2k.

New - I don’t really want to spend all the money I am making on this job on a new shaper but i am not depending on it for income so i could.

If i wanted everything that i think i want then it is the SCM TW 55ES about 11-12k with Delivery in Nov/Dec, that’s pretty quick considering it’s a new machine but late for the client, I would have to get them to agree to a new date.

What about Cantek, I typically stick with Euro built machines but they have been pushed on me several times, they do look built well but… they are available in slider with fixed spindle, tilt spindle no slide and special order tilt,slide in a month or two. Kicker is the tilt, slide is actually more than the SCM.

I know you can get by without tilt/slide ect but kinda looking at long term one time buy, i am ok with being slightly inconvenienced like oh it takes a little longer to setup without the memo fence and readout but you won’t miss having it as opposed to it reduces time, test runs and frustration for example


Thanks for your thoughts, Mark

[Jeff Roltgen]

Tilting spindle:
On a relatively new Felder F900z, I've recently used for molding such as crown back angles. A 45 degree angled bit with tilt = angles that used to be almost impossible without buying/setting up another knife set. Also used for coopered doors. I'd say depends on if you think you'll be doing these things a few times a year, otherwise, somewhat of a luxury feature.

Sliding table:
I love this on the F900z. Wonderful for cope cuts on any door. Firm enough with my coping sled integrated with slider that no concerns exist regarding that few thousandths height variation. I will say, I do panel-raising on the non-slider, simply because of that slight height variation. I'm sure it would work, as well as I'm sure I'd be sanding out the shiner lines left by the edge of the slider as the panel is fed past the bit.

Fence:
F900z has the memory pins, my 2nd fiddle (Laguna 5hp) does not, and neither machine has readouts. Still haven't had the time to remedy this, but would dearly love DRO's to retrofit.

No experience with Cantek, but we're all fairly well aware now, you can change the label, paint, and a couple features and it's just another Laguna, Grizzly, Shop Fox, Powermatic, Jet, etc. ...
All I can say is, the Laguna came first, and I thought I had arrived as a true professional. A few years later, the Felder arrived, I took an advanced shaper joinery class with Joe Calhoun, and my shop was instantaneously transformed by the whole European paradigm. Now the Laguna is viewed as a bit of a bumpkin. In it's favor, I will say: If you have / need to use smaller spindle bits, the Laguna has the advantage, as it will run 1.25", .75", .50", and even router bits in 1/2 and 1/4" shank (though I've never wasted time with the router bits yet, but nice having the assurance that I could if needed).
Every time I use the Felder, I long for the day that a second machine of it's caliber finds it's way into the shop. The Taiwanese machine is looser, louder, rougher, and I'm inclined to limit RPMs to 5-6K, and expect I'd feel the same about it's cousins of the same class. Certainly serviceable, but once you've tasted the higher end, the price differential makes complete sense, if you have the budget/work lined up.

In conclusion: If door/window/shutter work is your aim, seems seeking a tilt/slide would make sense, especially if running a single machine, for utmost flexibility.
Naturally, two is better, and a fixed, non-slider is well suited to this subordinate role.

Good luck!

Jeff

[Michael Schuch]

I have a cheap Chinese sliding table shaper. It is great for cutting the end grain of rails on cabinet doors. Other than that I personally haven't found too much use for the sliding feature.

I had an opportunity to upgrade my sliding shaper to a tilting shaper at a great price... after a lot of reading and research I found the it was not worth it for me. I am just a hobbyist though, this is not a business for me.

[Patrick Kane]

My shaper is a saw/shaper, which means i have a long sliding table attached to the shaper. On a stand alone shaper, i would go bolt on tenon/sliding table like SCM and martin have, or no table at all. I assume 90%+ of what you will want the sliding table for is coping cuts on cabinet doors. This something easily done on a coping sled, homemade or purchased.

I havent worked with the $25,000+ machines, but i actually like using a relatively low tech approach to the shaper. I like zero clearance fences for most operations, and i often make jigs for different operations. I am a fairly low use guy, and its mostly profiles, cope/stick, and dadoes/rebates that i dont want to handle at the table saw. Given your projected use, you more than likely wont be spinning 300mm tenoning discs, so i dont know that you need to go overboard with build quality. Its hard to have too big or too nice of a machine, but I think $12k for your projected usage is crazy town. I definitely wouldnt spend $12k on a shaper, because its something i use 4-5 times a year.

I prefer used euro, but thats just me.

[Albert Lee]

I have a SCM TI145EP with side sliding table, good thing about these side sliding table is that its not in the way if you are profiling, it comes with memory fence/shaft/tilt, I bought it new. great machine, cost a lot of $$$ but well worth every cent everytime I need to change the cutter cos I've forgotten that one piece... there is no belt to change.

the shaper is heavy, it weighs 1100kg, or 2400lb.

Now, about your questions.
1. tilting
I dont think its necessary to have tilting function. depend on what you do. there are occasions where you will need it but its not very often and there are ways you can make things work.

2. sliding table
Ideally you want cast iron, aluminium is too soft, you wont bend it with wood but over time, I have more faith in cast iron, you need to bear in mind the cast iron will be certain height over the table of the shaper, the travel of your shaft is important, the more you have the more room for your cutter.

3. Fence
if you are busy and hate setup, buy the one with electronic fence. no frustration about that 1mm or 1/16 of an inch, no template needed.

4. Other bits and pieces.
I was in your shoes 2 years ago, I just needed a shaper, decided to go electronic cos I absolutely hate setting up the shaper. you can make your money back easily if you choose the right market.

Here are some pics of the shaper and a video that I did when I first got it, thought it will be handy for someone considering a SCM shaper. there is not a lot of information about them online.





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[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Mark, I was just making some sash a couple of days ago, tilted the spindle a few degrees, made a clearance bevel for the sash to swing.

Earlier I used the tilting spindle to bevel the window sill.

I also used the sliding table with a tenon table and hood to make bridle joints for the sash. I use that feature often to cut tenons for furniture.

My fence doesn’t go back in the same position as it has No locating pins, it would be nice but not a deal breaker. I do have safety fingers, very useful.

I only have a readout for spindle elevation……..Regards, Rod

[Patrick Kane]

Mark, where in Vermont are you? This is an off the wall idea, but this machine is polish made, I think, and a very close copy of the Gomad design, which is a very close to the Martin t23. It’s hard to see it, but that shaper has the side mount beam and sliding table. Also has a feeder. It’s a very heavy vintage machine. You might not be looking for a project machine, but if you are close that is one of those tool brand that offer serious bang:buck. Even if you have the spindle rebuilt with new bearings, you still have thousands in the bank for tooling. It’s unfortunate, but you need $1000-1500 upfront to get a couple cutters.

https://m.facebook.com/marketplace/i...2111112l%22%7D

[Mitch schiffer]

I have a powermatic ts29. It has a tilting spindle and sliding table. There was one on Facebook a while back. I can't remember where it was I considered buying it and setting up a trucking company to pick it up. They were only asking 3500 for it and I could use another. I do like it but they don't seem to come up used too often so you may have trouble finding one that is in your price range.

[Mark e Kessler]

Tilting spindle:
On a relatively new Felder F900z, I've recently used for molding such as crown back angles. A 45 degree angled bit with tilt = angles that used to be almost impossible without buying/setting up another knife set. Also used for coopered doors. I'd say depends on if you think you'll be doing these things a few times a year, otherwise, somewhat of a luxury feature.

Good luck!

Jeff

Jeff, thanks for the excellent summary. Sounds like i am still in the euro, tilting slider camp based on your comments, we will see as i read through the responses to see how much I flip flop 😂

[Mark e Kessler]

I have a cheap Chinese sliding table shaper. It is great for cutting the end grain of rails on cabinet doors. Other than that I personally haven't found too much use for the sliding feature.

I had an opportunity to upgrade my sliding shaper to a tilting shaper at a great price... after a lot of reading and research I found the it was not worth it for me. I am just a hobbyist though, this is not a business for me.

That’s what I am afraid of, will use the slider for this one job then never really need it later on, same with the tilt.

[Mark e Kessler]

I have a SCM TI145EP with side sliding table, good thing about these side sliding table is that its not in the way if you are profiling, it comes with memory fence/shaft/tilt, I bought it new. great machine, cost a lot of $$$ but well worth every cent everytime I need to change the cutter cos I've forgotten that one piece... there is no belt to change.

10.jpgmove3.jpg45a.jpg

Albert, that is an awesome machine definitely can’t go that level. I do appreciate your comments and they are i line with my thinking so far

[Mark e Kessler]

Hi Mark, I was just making some sash a couple of days ago, tilted the spindle a few degrees, made a clearance bevel for the sash to swing.

Earlier I used the tilting spindle to bevel the window sill.

I also used the sliding table with a tenon table and hood to make bridle joints for the sash. I use that feature often to cut tenons for furniture.

My fence doesn’t go back in the same position as it has No locating pins, it would be nice but not a deal breaker. I do have safety fingers, very useful.

I only have a readout for spindle elevation……..Regards, Rod

Thanks Rod, looks like the tilt is a feature used quite a bit in your case and really useful. ahh for got about the safety fingers that’s something else i would be looking for.

One of the things I am trying to figure out is which feature is not a deal breaker, tilt, memory fence or mechanical readout on fence and spindle height. I am kinda in Alberts camp when it comes to quick setups, i already work 40-50 a week in another job so my time in the shop can be limited. I have found that ever since i sold my old equipment and bought a new J/P, saw with full DRO my work is more precise , efficient and the final product comes together much better in the end.

[Mark e Kessler]

Mark, where in Vermont are you? This is an off the wall idea, but this machine is polish made, I think, and a very close copy of the Gomad design, which is a very close to the Martin t23. It’s hard to see it, but that shaper has the side mount beam and sliding table. Also has a feeder. It’s a very heavy vintage machine. You might not be looking for a project machine, but if you are close that is one of those tool brand that offer serious bang:buck. Even if you have the spindle rebuilt with new bearings, you still have thousands in the bank for tooling. It’s unfortunate, but you need $1000-1500 upfront to get a couple cutters.

Patrick, I am about 1/2 hr North of MontyP. I saw that and contacted them, I also chatted with Joe Calhoun on IG about it. The machine is actually in NH about 1hr 20 South. They said it was running a year ago and all the parts are there, I was surprised to find that it is only 5hp seems a bit under powered.

I am curious and should probably go look at it but with the side table it’s big, Joe told me the Martin table folds down but I don’t think this one does, I don’t think i have the space for this one. I am ok with a cleanup/tuneup few things here and there but a full rebuild isn’t in the cards, I would be mostly concerned with the bearings, I have read where the right type of bearings for a machine like this can be hard to find and can cost thousands, hopefully someone with knowledge on this shaper will chime in and dispel these myths.

I do agree (somewhat) that spending 12k is crazy town but if i want a pinned fence with mechanical readout and tilting spindle I will more than likely need to buy new as used is non existent, if I hold out long enough one would probably popup but who knows when and I need to get the job done by the end of the year.

The 2003 scmi t130 is tempting at 5k, its got a memo fence, mechanical readouts a power feeder and a couple of drawers of tooling but no tilt or slide. I could buy the scm bolt on for 2k or even build one for around 1k but Rod made a very strong use case for the tilting spindle which has me flip flopping as predicted ����

[Albert Lee]

Thanks Rod, looks like the tilt is a feature used quite a bit in your case and really useful. ahh for got about the safety fingers that’s something else i would be looking for.

One of the things I am trying to figure out is which feature is not a deal breaker, tilt, memory fence or mechanical readout on fence and spindle height. I am kinda in Alberts camp when it comes to quick setups, i already work 40-50 a week in another job so my time in the shop can be limited. I have found that ever since i sold my old equipment and bought a new J/P, saw with full DRO my work is more precise , efficient and the final product comes together much better in the end.

Mark, I was in a rush earlier and I didnt realise you were the OP! I have a daytime job too, I want to enjoy the time using the machine, setting up machine isnt really using the machine, I paid good money for the machine, I want the machine to serve me, not me serving the machine most of the time! hence I went full electronic - actually not full. L'Invincibile (probably Martin too) has sensors that sense the cutter head you have and change everything automatically, including the feeder height!

Are you still happy with Felder? have you had a look at Profil 45? I dont think I can ever go back to manual spindle moulder, its like a tv with a remote...

I must say, the elecronic side of thing made me enjoyed every moment of using the shaper. I used to hate using the shaper cos my old shaper didnt even have memory pin, everytime I change the cutter its another 30 minute job setting it up close to what I want but not perfect. having the ability to push a button, knowing the computer will set it to the closest 0.1mm/0.004 inch made life so much easier. yes the initial cost is there, but I am sure you will quickly recover the cost.

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes Mark, time can be very valuable so rapid reset to parameters you keep track of can be very useful.

Regards, Rod