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Thread: Speedy 400 Laser Firing Problem

  1. #1

    Speedy 400 Laser Firing Problem

    I have a weird one, we got a speedy 400 w/ 80w iRadion tube. The tube was only firing at ~26w so we sent it off to evergreen to be recharged. I got everything recharged, reinstalled, and aligned but the laser is having a very odd issue. The weird part is the tube is not firing unless its at 100% power & <70% speed, otherwise there is nothing. I.E. if i were to engrave at 75% p and 70% s, the output that I see is 0% p and 70% s, but if i crank it up to 100%p and 70% s, its very clearly working.

    Here is what I have tried/observed
    1. The lights on the laser tube are flashing when it's suppose to be lasering.
    2. I have rebooted Ruby and the machine and the same result is happening.
    3. I tried calling Trotec's main line, no answer, i left a message.
    4. I tried texting a Trotec tech I have worked with in the past, but haven't heard back yet

    Next Steps
    1. Try on Job Control, just in case Ruby is bugging out.
    2. Try another design, though this wouldnt make sense as it works fine at 100% p.
    3. I might try to reflash the most recent firmware, eventhough im pretty sure it already has the most recent.

    Suspicions:
    1. I wonder if after having the tube recharged, if the tickle power changes or any of the service settings??? As the lights are flashing on the back of the tube.
    2. It could be a ruby bug, but i just dont think so as the lights are flashing properly on the back of the tube.
    3. ???

    Any ideas you have please let me know.
    Last edited by Chase Williams; 07-22-2022 at 3:26 PM.

  2. #2
    Chase
    Have you downloaded and installed the July 19 hotfix for Ruby? Hotfix Ruby® 2.3.1

    Don't know if it'll help this issue but you need it anyway.
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Gravograph IS400
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Dye Sublimation
    CorelDraw X5, X7

  3. #3
    Hey Mike, hope alls going well. I did do the hotfix already. I just got off of an hour long call with a very good trotec rep and we concluded that there might be a bug in Ruby as it did function properly in Job Control. However part of what was odd was the test pulse at 5% didn't fire the laser however 10% seemed right in line. I dont think its relevant and when i have a bit more time im going to try 6-9% to see if we are just a tiny bit off. We fully uninstalled ruby w/ deleting files in directories and reinstalled and still the same issue. What is so odd is it seems to be effected by speed, for instance with the same power settings it would not fire at 100% speed, but it would at 70%. They took the service files from both Ruby and Job control and are sending them to Austria to see what we get. We tried one of the stock files that Ruby is installed with as a sample and same thing so its not isolated to a single file. On the plus side i can just switch to job control and it works, on the downside, I like Ruby. He had mentioned that I should test the two power supplies and that I should read 40.3v on each and i should test the laser signal cable, by putting a female ethernet connector on the ethernet cable and putting the red line of a multimeter (DC voltage) to pin 1 and the black to ground and I should read 3.5-5v. So that will test some stuff too eventhough, I do not believe that to be related (I put the detailed instructions to help anyone else that might need to do this). Lets keep our fingers that Austria figures it out. For reference its a 2012 Speedy 400 w/ 80w iRadion tube.

  4. #4
    Chase

    Sorry that I'm not a techie. I also do not use Ruby as JC has been reliable and easy to use. I did download Ruby and I keep it current. I'm in my peak season and just don't have time on top of which the hard drive on my primary pc just fried and one of my sublimation printers went on the fritz. That's put me about 3 days behind and customers are nervous.
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Gravograph IS400
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Dye Sublimation
    CorelDraw X5, X7

  5. #5
    Since Ruby doesn't work right but JC does, just based on my troubleshooting experiences, that just about rules out everything EXCEPT Ruby. To be certain, you should run a gambit of different speed and power combo's in JC to see if it passes all tests-- which you're probably doing right now
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


  6. #6
    A little more development here, i am going to check the voltages of the power supply and the signal cable to the tube. I am having issues now in job control. Its very odd as its like once the tube warms up its more likely to accept different power/speed settings. I am thinking its a 50/50 chance between there not being enough signal and needing a tube replacement. If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions, let me know.

  7. #7
    Hoping to have time to put a multimeter on the machine. I keep forgetting to bring one to the office. But another development. I called Evergreen Laser about the tube to see their thoughts as, pre (mindset of) Ruby bug, the Trotec rep thought that it was most likely a tube but to check the isolated power supplies and signal cable. Evergreen said that they fully tested the tube at various powers for an hour each, they said they hit like 25% for an hour 50% for an hour and so on. Not sure I got the percentages right but the point is the same and they were confident that the tube was in good repair and condition when they sent it back to me and that any errors would have become apparent during testing. Evergreen seems very trust worthy and even assigned one of their people that’s an expert in the area to email me and help, which he did same day… very impressed with Evergreen’s service, below is their response. This is exciting, as I was dreading a tube exchange for both price and pain factor. So at least from what I have grasped all roads are pointing that the tube is not faulty and that it’s most likely a signal issue (I would think that’s just a cable replacement, hopefully not too painful) or a power supply. I was told that the iRadions are very sensitive to voltage (nobody has said damage will happen but have mentioned they won’t fire if not at nearly an exact 40.3v. I’m thinking I’ll make it up there Sunday with a multimeter and pray it’s a cable replacement or even better a knob adjustment on the power supply. If I don’t find anything with the multimeter, I am going to follow Evergreen’s advice below of power step down test.


    One last note, it has been reported to me that it seems like we get different responses to laser fire based on warmup. For instance if the laser has been firing at 100% power and immediately after I try 70-80% it will sometimes work and other not. If it’s cold it doesn’t seem to work. This is from another person and I have not personally seen this specific issue, but might lead me to think signal cable.

    I would think that at this point we have 4 possibilities: 1.) bad signal cable 2. Bad/out-of-tune power supply/s 3. Bad laser tube 4. Bug. I don’t think 4 is very likely as the issue is across two softwares JC and Ruby. I think any one of 1-3 or possibly a mix are possible. I would think that a multimeter should give some answers.

    RESPONSE START


    Well, I have never seen this particular issue, but it doesn't really sound like a power supply issue. It also is not a typical laser tube issue either, as you are saying the laser shows plenty of power when it fires.


    Typically, power supply issues are just the opposite. The laser will fire at low power, and crap out as the power is increased. However, anything is possible.


    My first thought would be that the PWM signal is not functioning properly.


    One thing Chase could try is to run a job that requires multiple power settings. You can usually set the power according to color selection in the software. Start out running at 100%, then reduce the power on the next layer to 90%, then 80.....and see what happens.


    Let me know how you make out.


    Thanks,


    Dan
    Last edited by Chase Williams; 07-30-2022 at 7:20 AM.

  8. #8
    powertest.cdr

    ^^ this is a simple test you can try I saved as/in Corel 9, it's eight 8" x 1" slanted 'bars in 8 different colors- the reason for the slant is simply to add white space to break up the firing a bit. Set the black at 100% power, then maybe 15% less each subsequent color...
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


  9. #9
    Well things got a little bit easier today, I did put a multimeter on the machine and tested each power supply (isolated) and they were all spot on, then i tested the signal cable to the laser and it was 4.4-4.5, which is right in line with the specs of between 3.5-5v DC. I took some compressed air and blew out some dust and cleaned everything. Then knowing this means the tube, i fired up the laser to test once again and at no point was the laser firing. All roads lead me to believe that the tube has failed. Evergreen is my next email, I am hoping to get my money back or a working tube, which is only fair. If they refund me, I suspect that I will have no choice but to do an exchange with Trotec, but I am hoping that Evergreen can repair it. Either way its a bummer, as it means at least 2 weeks of downtime for the machine.

  10. #10
    The plot thickens…

    I have sent the laser back and Evergreen is saying that the laser tube is functioning normally and that the problem is not the tube.

    There isn’t much to the actual laser firing mechanism, but there is another variable that I haven’t thought about until it was brought up, the variable power setting. I have checked the power supplies and am showing 40.3 DC, exactly. I have checked the laser firing both at the endpoint and at the tube and neither were showing signs of firing, with the red light flashing on the back of the tube, when it’s suppose to fire. I aligned everything Myself and had it spot on, and it was working fine at 100% power at the furthest point at each corner. Having Dan mention that the variable power setting is on pin 3 of the RJ45 plug, I suppose my next steps will be to take a multimeter to both the power plugin for the laser vs the power supply and to check the RJ45 at pin 3, if pin 3 is not proper, I’ll contact Trotec and Dan, and follow the serial and RG6 to the what I am pretty sure will lead me to the motherboard and test directly as well.

    Ignoring that it could be a software issue which Trotec says tickle power should not need adjusted, but double checking with Dan. I can only come up with two conclusions: 1.) While the power supply is showing 40.3v there maybe something loose to where the actual plug-in is not getting exact power. Even though the lights on the tube are lighting up. It’s possible but I doubt it, we fully cleaned and serviced the machine within the past 2 months and checked for any loose cables. 2.) Back again to the signal cable, while I was told in the past to check pin 1 for 3.5-5v DC+, Dan is the first to bring up pin 3 on the RJ45 sends the percent of fire power. It would seem that pin 3 would be the logical conclusion for the error at this point with all other things considered. Trotec has an odd wiring harness that takes, what I think is RG6 or RG11 (I remember it being thick but I don’t think RG11 thick) and a serial connection and combines that into a RJ45 connector.

    On the plus side, in the back of my head I was thinking “oh no it’s a bad tube”, Photovac mentioned at the beginning that iRadion tubes should be exchanged vs recharged but Evergreen was confident. At ~$1100 for a recharge from Evergreen (including shipping) vs $3200 + shipping for an exchange from Trotec, I choose the confident Evergreen to save some money. At least I don’t have a $3200+ problem… I hope. I am praying for it to be a loose connection on the wiring harvest, however if the signal on pin 3 is improper it’s possible the motherboard could be defective or a bad serial, RG6, or RJ45 cable. Evergreen uses the RJ45 on the tube to test so we can feel confident that the RJ45 on the tube itself is functioning.

    In any case it can’t hurt to disconnect the power leads, RJ 45, serial, and RG6 on each end and blow out with compressed air and hope for an improvement as well, though I will test first as I would like to properly diagnose and know what the issue was.

    My understanding is that the Trotec 80w iRadion 156 (really a 60w tube) laser itself is relatively simple, it needs 3 things: 1. Power (40.3v DC) 2. Signal on pin 1 of RJ45 (3.5-5v DC+) 3. Power % on pin 3 of RJ45 (0-5v DC). Considering that I’ve tested items 1 & 2, I’m led to think item 3 maybe the problem.

    I would like to specifically mention that throughout this process Evergreen has been very stand up. They connected me with Dan (laser guru)! They sent a return label for the tube to re-evaluate and had been quick to turn everything around at each step. I would without hesitation use them again and give them my stamp of approval. It’s not an ad, just a customer that thinks they have been above and beyond in an odd situation.

    In short, could be as simple as compressed air or as complicated as a motherboard but we are getting down to very few options for the problem to be.

    Fingers crossed for compressed air solving, or a bad cable. Let’s pray, the motherboard is in tact.

    QUESTIONS:
    Is there a possibility that the tickle power could change from a tube recharge? Or any other software setting?

    Software Settings
    Tickle Delay: 486ms
    Tickle Power 189
    Last edited by Chase Williams; 08-11-2022 at 6:07 AM.

  11. #11
    Not sure if you read my last 'repair' thread, where the X axis limit switch wire in my big Chinese Triumph, all alone running thru the drag chain, became brittle and broke in half, simply because it ran alongside the X stepper wires within the drag chain, and the break was right next to where the X-stepper wires were soldered together-- obviously those wires get pretty warm, especially at the connection... one of those soldered stepper wires broke years ago due to the heat and the connection bending in the drag chain, I posted that repair here also... Not an isolated thing either, also a few years ago an X stepper wire in my "good" Gravograph LS-900 did kind of the same thing, also IN THE DRAG CHAIN; somewhere/somehow the green stepper wire was rubbing something, eventually wearing thru the insulation, and the wire began grounding out against the cabinet, throwing a shower of sparks-- easy to find problem at least! I repaired the wire and all was well for a short time, then one day the X-stepper started growing it's own brain-- turned out the short to ground screwed up the X axis driver in the controller and I had to send it in to Gravovgraph to get repaired...

    ANY way-- I say this a lot: crappy wires and/or connectors and plugs of all kinds have nearly ALWAYS been the source of every problem I've ever had. In 40 years of running all the various computer controlled machines, I've had 1 power supply go bad, and 3 controllers go bad. Every other crazy problem has usually been a bad microswitch, or sketchy wire or connection.

    Short version: My bet is on a wire or connection As to tickle, I've never touched the tickle settings, and only 2 of the 5 C02 lasers I've owned even HAVE a tickle setting. My Taiwan-made GCC Explorer runs a 30w Synrad, and nowhere in the instructions is anything resembling a tickle setting mentioned, and my old 25w Synrad Universal didn't have a tickle setting. So not real sure how much help it really is. My LS-900 and the GCC- which are 18 and 17 years old, both occasionally have 'start to fire' issues, BUT, it's always when the laser is cold. Sometimes the delay is short, sometimes 30 seconds or more (but that's rare), but NEVER has either machine quit firing in the middle of a job, or NOT fired on ANY subsequent jobs right after running a prior job, regardless of settings...

    LAST note on this: my Triumph, which will be 9 years old in November, is still running the original 80w RECI tube. Lately it's developed a 'machine-gun' type of firing at lower powers, specifically, at 28% power or above it fires religiously, at 27% and below, it fires erratically; you can see it, even hear it, and the mA meter even shows it! In most cases it's not noticeable on the finished work, but half-thru 'snap' cuts are pretty inconsistent looking. BUT-- every once in awhile I'll play with the wires on the mA meter, and the problem disappears. For awhile anyway- So I'm not sure if one of those wires is loose, or if it's loose on the tube itself, or if the meter is bad, or if it's just coincidence!

    -my bet is a loose or bad wire

    Hopefully you get lucky!
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


  12. #12
    Hi Kev, thanks for writing in!

    I agree that the most likely situation is a bad wire/wiring harness. The wiring harness is definitely made in house at Trotec, it’s clearly only for this application to take RG6 and serial and convert the combination into RJ45. My bet is that it’s that wiring harness. I wished I had known about pin 3 prior to sending off the tube. I haven’t tested it but it’s the most likely diagnosis at this point and would have only taken seconds to test when I was there previously. I’ll test the whole cabinet to make sure that nothing is energizing the ground (whole cabinet), that’s a good suggestion as it’s something that could happen but you wouldn’t think of. We bought the machine used from an individual that only used it ~900 hours across 10 years and kept it pristine. I personally have cleaned it and it looks like new. I am always looking for any problem items like loose wires, etc when doing a thorough cleaning and didn’t spot anything but nevertheless it’s a good idea and I’ll look again.

    Going along the same idea as what you are saying the wiring harness has a lot of metal from the outside of the BNC connector for the RG6 and the outside of the serial connector; combine that with the entirely metal body that surrounds that, I would think those outside terminals should be ground anyways but nevertheless maybe I’ll wrap them with electrical tape at the metal ends just in case. I am hoping that I can get up there to test pin 3 today, depending on what I find, I may go exploring with a multimeter. Send good vibes for it to be the wiring harness or just a general loose wire that didn’t cause any damage to electronics!

    Off topic, but does anyone have any experience with repairing a ribbon connection that is permanently mounted? I have a printhead that is $2500 and someone pulled the ribbon on it and damaged the connection. As anyone could imagine I am not happy about that one.

  13. #13
    Gravograph and Trotec are pretty much on par as to 'quality'... even so,
    this is my drag chain wiring now--

    900chain.jpg

    and farther forward, the menagerie of stepper plug wires...
    900wires.jpg

    -I forgot that my short circuit also took out the stepper, and we had a helluva time getting the right stepper, think it took 3 tries. Never bothered to put that cap back on, and figured if I did it was probably a good way for another short circuit to happen!

    ribbon cable, funny you mention that- My GCC's X servo motor is connected to the motherboard via a ribbon cable, which during my last cleaning I accidentally pulled it out of the connector on the motherboard. I ended up having to snip the end of the ribbon off and strip back the covering on the 'top side' that join up with the female plug, which I also happened to break--
    While not the "correct" way to fix it, it's been working:
    ribbon1.jpgribbon2.jpg
    --half the motherboard clip is missing, and the terminals are on the top side of the female pocket. Without the whole connector, the only way to get it the ribbon to make connection and stay put was to make some shims and stuff them in on the bottom side of the ribbon! It actually took me 2 days to get this to work, had to use TWO shims from .025 Rowmark stock and hand-taper the ends with sandpaper just right so they'd squeeze and and hold but not fall out-- the other piece of white Duets in the left pic spans from the top to bottom of the opening; it keeps just enough tension on the ribbon to keep it in place and also keeps the ribbon INside the cabinet where I won't hit it with my leg when walking by! --The reason I don't put the door back on is it has a fan and wires mounted to it that are precariously close to the ribbon so I just keep it off. I have several fans running in the garage to help move the cool AC air around (and warm heater air in the winter), and that seems to be enough to keep the board cool--

    I just took these pics, and also this one of the GCC running 6 of the 350 solar info placards
    I have on order
    GCCrunnign.jpg

    I'm pretty adept at jerryrigging (and it's cheap!)
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


  14. #14
    Excuse my delay, I have throughly looked over the machine and played with the multimeter and I can report that the incoming power socket for the laser tube is showing 40.3 and that the machine does not have the ground energised, I cannot find any loose wires or cables. I have taken compressed air to all of the connections that talk to the laser tube and still nothing. It is very odd, i am getting laser power at 50% but now to test the pulse width modulation (PWM), which can not be measured with a multimeter, I am leaning on one of my engineer buddies and hoping he can borrow an oscilloscope to see if we can find out if its the cable or motherboard. It looks like the cable itself is a combination of a BNC terminal RG6 with serial and a 2 pin molex connector all to RJ45; it appears that iRadion manufactures the cable, so i can feel confident that if i seek a replacement Trotec nor the manufacturer (iRadion) will be cheap. Its never fun to purchase expensive parts with no confident hope that it will solve the problem. I know nothing of using an oscilloscope or anything more than the concept of how PWM works, but in theory i would think we would see voltage spikes and drops in the milliseconds, which might explain how these lasers can laze so precisely at high speeds on an analog signal. I believe 2017+ models are fully digital and I dont think have this but I maybe confusing the tube with the servos.

    Kev, I dont know if it helps but the power chain on the Trotec is an Igus e-chain 045, yours looks very similar. I am surprised to see they routed wire through the power chain which will obviously move a lot and rub. I might suggest wrapping all of the wires in electrical tape as without some kind of heavier shielding you are definitely bound for a problem. Ill try to post a picture of the ribbon cable i am working with it was permanently soldered on and got partially ripped off. The solder is probably beyond my skillset as its very small and would probably take a surgeon to accomplish. I think im going to take it to a computer repair place and see what I get, if not its painful... $2500 printhead.

  15. #15
    " I am getting laser power at 50%" -- Might be a tell, however, I'm one of those folks with just enough knowledge 'to be dangerous' about lasers, but 50% power is indicative of a blown capacitor in the laser's electronics--it's my understanding that there's 2 capacitors, each one responsible for 50% of the laser's power output, and I'm aware of a few users that have had this issue. My BIL's 40w Synrad in his LS800 has been on 50% power for like 8 years now, works just fine other than half the power... Our Gravo rep measured his beam power at 21 watts awhile back, and he believes his tube has lost a capacitor. He doesn't use the laser much these days and can't justify the repair cost so he just engraves slower when he DOES use it...

    Not sure how to test the capacitors, I'm thinking Synrads, just getting into the electronics section is easy to do and bad capacitors are sometimes easy to spot visually, but not sure cuz I've never had a tube apart.

    Re-reading thru your post, seems your power issues are all over the map, so... banghead.gif
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


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