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Thread: Roughing blade for LN No. 4 - anyone use one??

  1. #46
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    So....all this has ..what to say ...about a roughing iron for a No. 4 sized plane....hmmmm

    Maybe just get a No. 40 or No.40-1/2? Or..just let the Jack plane do it's job....

    History lesson ..noted. Needed? maybe not....

    yes, any 2" wide iron will fit into about any #4 sized plane.....simple answer....nothing more.

    There IS a chap working for the Plimouth Plantation...you 2 could talk to....Peter Follansbee....ever hear tell of the guy...
    Last edited by steven c newman; 07-22-2022 at 6:40 PM.
    A Planer? I'm the Planer, and this is what I use

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    My apologies, Charles.

    A previous poster had mentioned Thomas Sheraton and I meant to say his name when I made my post. Sheraton was 39 when he began his own business after working as an apprentice and a journeyman.

    Sheraton was a bit later than Chippendale and worked at a time when figured timber was important, so the double iron was important economically.
    Timing certainly makes more sense Warren.

    I read somewhere that when Sheraton came out with his four-volume design book it was during a time when he didn't even have a shop, and presumably no customers. It was the book plus some money he picked up as a part-time preacher that made ends meet. This, and there has been no attribution to even one piece in the series directly to Sheraton himself. Surely he made some of the designs though. He clearly wasn't as busy as Chippendale was before him. That said, his designs are better IMO.

    He only lived to be 55 (1751-1806). With these dates in mind he presumably would have finished an apprenticeship in the early/mid 1770s at the latest.
    Last edited by Charles Guest; 07-22-2022 at 7:12 PM.

  3. #48
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    Always a treasure trove of information when Warren and Charles exchange information ( and sometimes barbs ). Neanderthal heaven!

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rainey View Post
    Always a treasure trove of information when Warren and Charles exchange information ( and sometimes barbs ). Neanderthal heaven!
    Sobering to realize that Chippendale, and those in his firm, worked with single-iron planes.

    Didn't seem to diminish the work.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Guest View Post
    Chippendale was born in 1718 and died in 1779 at age 61. If he finished his apprenticeship by the time he was in his early 20s that would have been in the late 1730s. I think the earliest printed reference to the double-iron was 1767. I doubt that Chippendale was running hand planes twelve years before his death or really in the decades before then. Carving, yes, getting out stock for projects with a staff of 50+ at his disposal, highly doubtful. If he did, I suppose he sent some 15 year old apprentice to meet with his clients, suppliers, bankers, creditors, printers, ironmongers, etc.

    London cabinetmakers were well staffed firms with broad capabilities, some of which had more than 150 employees (see George Seddon, et al.) They were not some lone, tortured craftsman working in a colonial backwater running through the muddy streets shrieking "Eureka" when the double-iron showed up on the scene, as if every problem of running a sophisticated cabinetmaking firm had been finally solved.


    I love this, Charles.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    So....all this has ..what to say ...about a roughing iron for a No. 4 sized plane....hmmmm..
    Actually, I have enjoyed seeing this thread evolve!! So much information from so many skilled and experienced craftsmen has been both informative and educational. The historical commentary is just icing on the cake.

    Left click my name for homepage link.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Keeton View Post
    Actually, I have enjoyed seeing this thread evolve!! So much information from so many skilled and experienced craftsmen has been both informative and educational. The historical commentary is just icing on the cake.
    ... and George Hepplewhite lived from 1727-1786, just to round out the Big 3. He apprenticed to Gillow, and a firm named Gillow is still in business in England under that name though a buyout occurred in the early 1800s.

    Hepplewhite may have been exposed to double-iron planes but it would not have been until fairly late in his life based on the dates in the posts above. He would not have used them as an apprentice. Hepplewhite, like Sheraton, is another instance where a particular piece of existing furniture cannot be positively attributed to his own hand or firm, but 10 designs exist in the London Book of Prices with his name on them.

    The double-iron plane, from a date perspective, really only caught the tail end of two of the Big 3 London cabinetmakers' careers and was missed by the biggest name, Chippendale, altogether. And when I say "biggest" name I mean from the perspective of a firm with a lot of extant work and a documented history of actual commissions. Individual tastes vary. I like Sheraton and Hepplewhite designs.
    Last edited by Charles Guest; 07-23-2022 at 12:46 PM.

  8. #53
    We don't really have a date for the origin of the double iron plane.

    The earliest written reference we know about is the Carruthers advertisement in the Pennsylvania Chronicle 1767. It is nice to pull out this date when someone suggests that Leonard Bailey invented the double iron a century later. But the Carruthers ad itself suggests that he was selling an improved design for the double iron planes that had been available previously. Many of us have long thought that the earliest double iron planes had two irons that were not screwed together and that they were likely used by craftsmen who made them themselves or altered single iron planes. I have seen pictures of double iron rabbet planes that had no screw holding the irons together. And Japanese planes use a cap iron that is not screwed to the cutting iron.

    A recent archeological dig unearthed a double iron plane with no screw that appears to be from around 1750. This technology could have been around for decades on a small scale. Someone with a lot of experience in hand stock preparation with double iron planes might be able discern whether a piece made in 1750 was prepared with a double iron.
    Last edited by Warren Mickley; 07-23-2022 at 3:18 PM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    We don't really have a date for the origin of the double iron plane.

    The earliest written reference we know about is the Carruthers advertisement in the Pennsylvania Chronicle 1767. It is nice to pull out this date when someone suggests that Leonard Bailey invented the double iron a century later. But the Carruthers ad itself suggests that he was selling an improved design for the double iron planes that had been available previously. Many of us have long thought that the earliest double iron planes had two irons that were not screwed together and that they were likely used by craftsmen who made them themselves or altered single iron planes. I have seen pictures of double iron rabbet planes that had no screw holding the irons together. And Japanese planes use a cap iron that is not screwed to the cutting iron.

    A recent archeological dig unearthed a double iron plane with no screw that appears to be from around 1750. This technology could have been around for decades on a small scale. Someone with a lot of experience in hand stock preparation with double iron planes might be able discern whether a piece made in 1750 was prepared with a double iron.

    Well surely the Romans probably used them. Yeah, that's it. That's the ticket.

    I wish I knew how to produce the funny memes that people produce. I'd make one showing Chippendale using a Hammer sliding tablesaw and grinning from ear-to-ear.
    Last edited by Charles Guest; 07-23-2022 at 4:34 PM.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    We don't really have a date for the origin of the double iron plane.

    The earliest written reference we know about is the Carruthers advertisement in the Pennsylvania Chronicle 1767. It is nice to pull out this date when someone suggests that Leonard Bailey invented the double iron a century later. But the Carruthers ad itself suggests that he was selling an improved design for the double iron planes that had been available previously. Many of us have long thought that the earliest double iron planes had two irons that were not screwed together and that they were likely used by craftsmen who made them themselves or altered single iron planes. I have seen pictures of double iron rabbet planes that had no screw holding the irons together. And Japanese planes use a cap iron that is not screwed to the cutting iron.

    A recent archeological dig unearthed a double iron plane with no screw that appears to be from around 1750. This technology could have been around for decades on a small scale. Someone with a lot of experience in hand stock preparation with double iron planes might be able discern whether a piece made in 1750 was prepared with a double iron.
    Good point Warren. There is so much unknown about that period. Do we have single iron planes from the early 1700’s? Was there a common bedding angle? I guess it varied with the planemaker.

  11. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Guest View Post
    I enjoyed that article. Thanks for posting it!
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

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