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Thread: Conversion Varnish - KemVar Plus for kitchen cabinets?

  1. #1

    Conversion Varnish - KemVar Plus for kitchen cabinets?

    Hi everyone,

    I'm trying to figure out a good finish for the kitchen cabinets I'm currently building.

    They're just basic shaker-style cabinets. Soft maple and ply. The exteriors are going to be white and I want to do a clear finish inside the cabs and drawers.

    I'm spraying using the HVLP setup I use for auto body work (another hobby).

    I've done a ton of reading on this (and other forums) trying to figure out a good finishing approach for this. I've found something approaching 200,000 opinions and maybe 20,000 products.

    My local Sherwin Williams has KemVar Plus conversion varnish in one gallon cans but they don't know anything about it. I was actually considering using Kem Aqua Plus, but they have this KemVar Plus, so... I dunno.

    I also was looking at Benjamin Moore's Lenmar DuraLaq and MegaVar, but apparently they sold the Lenmar division?

    So I guess what I'm asking is... does anyone know of a good info source or know anything about these commercial/industrial finishes?

    In the past I've used Sherwin Williams ProClassic and it's not bad, but I'm looking for something more resilient to household chemicals and so forth.

  2. #2
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    I know that John T has spoken highly of the BM products. Both he and I did not have a good experience with the Kem Aqua Plus, although he mitigated by using some GF extender. I personally use Target Coatings EM8000cv when I want a conversion varnish product.
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 07-16-2022 at 3:43 PM.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  3. #3
    Damion,
    For the clear interiors, not sure I'd be worried about going full-on conversion varnish. Exteriors get the splashes, drips and scrapes. My go-to for the interior is simply to buy pre-finished maple ply. Just doesn't pay to spray the interiors yourself when cost difference is compared. That's my recommendation to relieve your concerns about the interiors.

    I've seen KemVar used on exterior doors by a local door specialty company, and given the 8+ year age of it, looks quite good, other than some peeling in key expected areas, at right angle joinery points, which another contractor re-touched and over-coated with Epifanes, in lieu of a $7,000 quote to remove, refinish and replace.
    I used SW T77 series "acrylic conversion coating" on interior cabinets in same home at about the same time, and recently found edge peeling around drawers closest to sink, where water/wear and tear are heaviest. Appears client washes dishes and promptly put them into the drawers, not fully dry. Not blaming them- just rare opportunity to review a product I made close to a decade later and assess durability of product used. Still searching for a more durable coating.

    Recently, used Diamond Vogel' s conversion varnish for a bath, as we needed a stupid amount of protection that could withstand shaving cream. You wouldn't believe how hard it is to find a finish that is not affected by this caustic product. Test samples were promising, but , as with the T77 series, this clear coat flakes off around trim screw holes and scribing work at installation. I guess, just too brittle? This includes vinyl sealer underneath it for maximum moisture resistance and a forgiving, flexible bond. Oh well.

    Meanwhile, trying to do all this and avoid solvents, so cutting to the chase, I'm currently leaning more towards Mohawk finishes. Both the WB "pre-cat" and WB "conversion varnish" display wonderful spray application results with very good leveling, and higher build than a similar General Finishes High Performance at about 35% less cost. Due to viscosity, tough to push through a gravity fed cup, but cured by using a bottom mount pressurized PPS cup. Even the shaving cream test left almost no visible effect on the CV product (M641-2120), slightly more evident on the Pre-Cat (M640-2120).

    Biggest reason for sticking with WB on a current kitchen is the cabinet doors. White with a rub-back finish, exposing a stained maple, light distressing and a gray glaze, which really is best served by a final clear coat to unify look, feel and add more protection. I've gotten lucky in the past with paint under the T77 series, but with some paint formulations, it can have a reaction with the paint color, hence the quest for WB products.
    As for the paint, I'll be using SW Emerald after stain/seal coat. It settles down super-smooth, and for your application, may be all you need. I've read elsewhere that the Pro-Classic is preferred as it's better durability, but I've not compared the two. I've yet to experience adverse reactions using WB topcoats over a WB paint.

    Finally, I'd love to know/learn more about pigmented lacquers, but alas, Mohawk's tech support requests go completely unanswered. Would normally dismiss them and their products accordingly, but this is sadly the norm now days. If I had the time, I'd love to take one of their pro finishing classes just so I can nail one of those guys down and enlighten me with a more optimal mix of products.
    In this day of "information" proliferation, it's almost impossible to get any actual, valuable knowledge, which of course is why we're both communicating here.

    Hope that's more help than confusing.

    Jeff

  4. #4
    I think Jim means em8000cv for the target conversion varnish. You can also purchase a cross linking additive. It is easy to spray. I have used it on my own kitchen island and kitchen table. It is a very durable product imho.



    I would trust John T’s advice above most tho. He has experience with many other products.

  5. #5
    SW's Kemvar is a line of acid catalyzed solvent based conversion varnishes, highly flammable and toxic, very chemical resistant and durable, very different from waterborne "conversion varnishes". They off-gas fumes for some days and contain urea formaldehyde. You need good personal protection and a spray booth. Film finish has a strict limit to avoid wrinkling.

    As Jeff says, if you want clear interiors use prefinished ply.

    Kemvar Plus appears to be only for tinting, while M, C and LF are clears. https://industrial.sherwin-williams.....10656720.html
    https://industrial.sherwin-williams....h.9198022.html

    I would contact SW's tech service directly for more info. There are many competitors in the market including M.L. Campbell and other choices in industrial coating types for cabinets including 2K poly so do your research. Waterbornes are much safer but typically are more limited in chemical resistance (although as Jeff's post indicates, waterbornes are constantly changing and improving).
    Last edited by Kevin Jenness; 07-16-2022 at 1:24 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prashun Patel View Post
    I think Jim means em8000cv for the target conversion varnish..
    yea, fat fingered it. Thanks for the catch! I've edited it to correct.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  7. #7
    My go-to for the interior is simply to buy pre-finished maple ply.


    ugh… my cabinets are already built.

    Otherwise, thanks for the detailed reply. It’s going to take me a bit to digest all of it, though.

    Where do you find mohawk finishes? I didn’t even know they existed!

    I used SW T77 series "acrylic conversion coating" on interior cabinets in same home at about the same time, and recently found edge peeling around drawers closest to sink, where water/wear and tear are heaviest. Appears client washes dishes and promptly put them into the drawers, not fully dry. Not blaming them- just rare opportunity to review a product I made close to a decade later and assess durability of product used. Still searching for a more durable coating.



    T77… is that the Sherwood Catalyzed Lacquer?

    Last edited by Damion Bevacqua; 07-16-2022 at 7:28 PM.

  8. #8
    Yeah, I did some more research on kemvar and no… that’s not what i’m looking for.

  9. #9
    T77… is that the Sherwood Catalyzed Lacquer?
    Full product number I used: T77-F63 (63 denotes sheen, in this case "dull rubbed effect")
    Acrylic Conversion Coating is on the label, and I would say no, it's not the Sherwood Catalyzed, which I think is a pre-cat from factory. They catalyze this one at the store when you pick it up, which then gives you a 6 month use-by date. A nice compromise between it and a full on conversion varnish with a pot life measured in hours. I believe you also may buy it and the catalyst and mix your own per project to stretch life of product. As I review the quoted text, perhaps it sounds like an indictment of the product. Truth is, I've sprayed probably 100 gallons of it over the years, and if I were not in pursuit of WB products, it would likely still be my go-to finish. That's why I mentioned the circumstances leading up to the edge peeling. Really cannot blame the product for that, especially considering this treatment over almost a decade.
    One last catch with this one: It only comes in 5 gallon buckets, though with coating cabs inside and out, you'll probably use at least half that.

    Mohawk Finishes:
    They are more attuned to working direct with large industrial accounts and jobbers, small dabbling with touch-up kits recently for consumers. I know them well from my experience in furniture repair service at local retailer. They are the master company for all things related to wood touch-up, and cater directly to furniture stores by offering classes in finishing and touch-up. I've never stopped using their repair products, opening an account when I started my cabinet shop.
    Fast forward: Now that availability issues and disappointments with testing lots of different brands, one of which appears elsewhere in this thread and led to the worst experience in finishing products ever, I dropped my objection to paying freight and hauling in 1-5 gallon buckets of finish.
    If I was so happy with the touch-up and glazing products, what if I converted to their system entirely, and start enjoying brand compatibility already assured with stains, sealers, glazes and topcoats? So far, this logical move seems to be working out, and though they are getting slammed with raw material costs, they still are reasonable, and produce it in their own factory, so availability issues are greatly reduced.
    There are a few Mohawk distributors on line, so you should be able to pick up product indirectly. I just like dealing direct, as you get 100% access to all products (resellers usually don't carry 100% of product line), and enjoy a little bit of a price break. Since I hit several hundred or more per order, no small order processing fees that you'd be hit with for a single gallon, for instance, so trying first through a reseller may be smartest to start.

    Another contender was Old Masters "Master's Armor" WB topcoat, suited for hardwood floors. Sprays like a dream right out of the can, levels out beautifully and durability tests are very respectable, especially when using their catalyst/hardener for it.
    Problem: Unable to purchase any for 6 months now. Local distributor won't even take my name or write up an invoice for when it arrives, as they have no idea if/when and what sheen may incidentally be shipped to them. Ugh. If you can find it in your locale, I would strongly recommend it.

    jeff

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    I personally use Target Coatings EM8000cv when I want a conversion varnish product.
    Jim, when do you want to use a conversion varnish product?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damion Bevacqua View Post
    Jim, when do you want to use a conversion varnish product?
    Best used when additional durability is required. The addition of a crosslinker also increased chemical resistance. For this particular product, as proven out by John T, there is a period of time that has to pass for best protection on the latter.

    My personal use for the EM8000cv has been for a "yuge" kitchen island as well as clear coating some kitchen cabinets and some smaller tables where the benefits could be justified. It has a slightly warm color so it requires a little less dancing when clear coating uncolored wood. Not as much as Target's EM2000 which is an emulsified alkyd that looks very much like an oil based varnish, but still warmer than the EM6000 and EM7000 product which is "really white" and tends to have a colder effect. I do warm up the wood first before using those with oil and/or wax-free shellac.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #12
    I think I’ve decided to just go the easy route and use Target finishes.

    I was looking at Sherwin Williams and BM for local access to the products and so forth, but it doesn’t appear that many local stores even carry the products, and if they do, they only carry certain ones. Besides, it seems like Target ships pretty quickly.

    I guess what’s confusing about all of this is that many woodworkers aren’t used to spraying the more “dangerous” finishes, like automotive paints. I have a decent amount of experience with those. The best part of auto finishes is that I can just ask the guy at the store things like “what’s the most durable clear you have” and I can just get that. Everyone is aware that the finish is going to have solvents and be dangerous, etc.

    HOWEVER… by going with Target, I can get SW colors and do the finishing in my (sealed) basement, which will be super convenient.

    I’ll try to remember to update this thread with how things turn out.

    BIG THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO CONTRIBUTED - LOTS OF GREAT INFO IN HERE!

  13. #13
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    Damion, make sure you're on Target's email list so you get the discount codes...they pretty much cover shipping cost and sometimes a little more. I will say that they have been spot-on for color matching for me when that was necessary.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  14. #14
    Um, I wouldn't finished in a sealed basement. You should still have a way to vent the fumes. The solvents used in any of these finishes are not SAFE, just not VOLATILE (which is an arbitrary definition).

    The good news is you don't need explosion proof fans.

    When I've sprayed Target or General finishes too vigorously and not vented or worn ppe, I can feel it in my nose and throat later that night. You WILL ingest that stuff, so caveat emptor in a sealed basement.

  15. #15
    Not to mention that the last time I sprayed EM8000 in my basement it set off my CO2/Smoke alarm, which set all the alarms off in the house. Worse it wrecked the detector so that it kept going off no matter how long the basement had been vented.

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