Words of Caution and the price for not heeding them

[Mark Hennebury]

Tom,
Safer:
1. Use stop blocks.! Wood pressed up against the stop while lowering onto a spinning blade cannot kick-back!

If you want to work without stops, and you can, It is a judgement call based on several factors, the size of the wood, the width and depth off cut, your ability to understand what you are doing, and your ability to keep control of the wood. Your commitment and focus to complete the job.

If you choose to work without stops you can still do that relatively safely; keep your hands on the infeed side of the saw. This way if you slip and the wood gets grabbed by the sawblade and it shoots passed you, your hands will be pushed toward you and away from the sawblade. you will loose the wood, but not your fingers.

The most dangerous way...... by far... is to do the cut without stops, and to place one hand on the out-feed side of the saw. This is pretty much suicide. Do-able, but one slip and your losing fingers....guaranteed! You simply have no escape route, you don't have time to react, and your hand will go into the sawblade!

Danger is everywhere, if you are alive your in danger of getting injured or killed!

But you have to choose carefully what dangers you can and want to accept.

I see no reason to do this cut with your hand on the out-feed side of the saw! whether or not you use stop blocks.

Hmmm. I'm not sure what to make of this. I have done this blind dado many times and honestly it gave me, and still gives me, the heebie jeebies when lowering any piece of wood onto a spinning router bit or saw blade. That is why I have gotten into hand tools and have a hand router plane.

I'm not sure how this technique could have been made safer. I have some ideas though.

1. Lowering the blade, so the full depth of the dado must be achieved through multiple passes. Safer probably but introduces errors with multiple passes. But since the dado was only a quarter inch deep, I'm not sure going more shallow would have been that much safer.

2. Not using a blind dado. Run it full length and plug the area outside the magnetic knife holder. Use a contrasting wood and make it a feature, not a mistake.

3. Flip the board over, clamp it to the bench and use a plunge router with edge guides.

4. Heck, just use hand tools.

Anyone else have a safer way of doing this?

[Thomas McCurnin]

Mark, I'm not sure how to use stop blocks in this technique. The piece was 30" long, about as long as the table saw is deep, and I assume the dado was centered, so at least 25 inches of the board had to go past the spinning blade, and there would be no way to place a stop block behind the blade, on the outfeed side. Unless the user has a really deep outfeed table, which would have to be after market. In any case, even with a stop block on the outfeed table, with a stopped dado on a table saw, once still has to place the pieces onto a spinning dado blade, move it along the dado, shut off the saw and lift it up. I would not feel comfortable doing this, stop block or not.

I don't think I've ever done a stopped dado like this on a table saw, although I have done this on a router table. It always, never fails, scares the crap out of me.

I might consider using a router table and a half inch or three eighths bit and making multiple passes, moving the fence and raising the bit. I put tape on the fence and drop the piece onto the spinning router bit, run it through and then lift it up, unless I can easily shut off the router first, which in my case, I cannot do. I don't have a foot switch. My guess would be that I would probably wreck 2-3 pieces before getting one close enough to trim to size with hand tools. That's what I have done in the past.

I think I would have made the piece something like 45-50" long, put the dado in the center using a plunge router with the piece clamped to the bench and taking incremental passes with a plunge router with stops clamped or hot melt glued to the piece to stop the router base. Then cut the piece to size on the table saw.

Or move my RAS to rip, put in the dado, clamp down the piece and lower the blade. I think the RAS would be my last choice.

Or score the dado sides, and use a router plane.

I'd have to noodle this looking at the board and the magnetic attachment that apparently fits inside the dado.

I am super-scared of table saws, and have been using them since I was 14 years old. Call it unreasonable fear or a healthy respect, but I noodle cuts like these, often sleeping on the technique, googling the technique, rehearsing the proposed moves, trying hold downs, and weighing alternative ways to make the cut. I usually do offbeat cuts like these first thing in the morning, not when I am tired, and after my morning coffee.

But clarify for me how you would use a stop block on a table saw dado blade set up, because I'm not understanding.

[Andrew Hughes]

What’s the status of the magnetic knife holder.
Did you finish it?

[Mark Hennebury]

First thing Tom,

if using a machine scares the crap out of you, then you shouldn't be using it!

Why are you scared of doing an operation on a machine?... the only reason that I can think of is that you don't understand the mechanics of what you are doing, are not sure what might happen, not sure of your ability to control the material and are just jumping in blind and hoping things don't go sideways. That is not the way to work on machines in my opinion.

If you understand the variables of an operation you can assess the degree of danger and make a judgement on your ability to control the outcome. If you don't understand the variables and don't have confidence and cannot apply the needed commitment and attention, you should be very scared.

Dealing with danger is a part of life, you cannot avoid it.

If you want to work on dangerous machinery, you need to know what you are doing and be confident in your ability to perform the task. Arming yourself with push sticks and grippers to combat fear is not safe. Working with danger when you know what you are doing is not scary.....intense, but not scary!


In this particular case, I do not know the length of dado of position in the piece of wood, the size of the table saw or fence etc. I don't know how many teeth are on the dado set, how fast it's spinning or if it has chip limiters etc.. missing information does not help in providing an accurate assessment.

Chip limiters make the cut safer, saw can only cut a set amount per tooth making for a controlled rate of feed, a blade set without chip limiters can take a much bigger cut and will be a lot more aggressive when making initial contact with the blade when lowering the wood into the spinning blade at the start.

If the table saw top is not long enough for the operation, you don't need an aftermarket anything you simple put a piece of MDF to make a longer sub-table this is not complicated stuff, the principle is simply to have a stop to register the wood against when you start to lower the wood into the spinning cutter. You then feed the wood (as you would when ripping) up to the outfeed stop and lift it up, no need to shut the saw down for this.


The Great age of information is a two sided blade, on the one hand we have the availability of endless information at our fingertips... the problem is that most of it is incorrect. So learning from Youtube channels may just be teaching you how to do stuff wrong. You need to learn the properties of wood, cutting tool geometry, the wood cutting process, understand the what the machine is doing, rim speed, tooth count, chip size etc.. so that you know what you are doing, then it's not scary, it is just a controlled process, with a predictable out-come.

This photo shows the principle, if the table isn't long enough, make it longer, if the fence isn't long enough... make it longer. If you table-saw table is not long enough clamp on a MDF sub-table, if you fence is not long enough clamp on a scrap to the fence,

Analyze, understand, adapt, overcome, this is woodworking!

Your best personal protective gear is knowledge.


Assem3.jpg tablesaw5.jpg

Mark, I'm not sure how to use stop blocks in this technique. The piece was 30" long, about as long as the table saw is deep, and I assume the dado was centered, so at least 25 inches of the board had to go past the spinning blade, and there would be no way to place a stop block behind the blade, on the outfeed side. Unless the user has a really deep outfeed table, which would have to be after market. In any case, even with a stop block on the outfeed table, with a stopped dado on a table saw, once still has to place the pieces onto a spinning dado blade, move it along the dado, shut off the saw and lift it up. I would not feel comfortable doing this, stop block or not.

I don't think I've ever done a stopped dado like this on a table saw, although I have done this on a router table. It always, never fails, scares the crap out of me.

I might consider using a router table and a half inch or three eighths bit and making multiple passes, moving the fence and raising the bit. I put tape on the fence and drop the piece onto the spinning router bit, run it through and then lift it up, unless I can easily shut off the router first, which in my case, I cannot do. I don't have a foot switch. My guess would be that I would probably wreck 2-3 pieces before getting one close enough to trim to size with hand tools. That's what I have done in the past.

I think I would have made the piece something like 45-50" long, put the dado in the center using a plunge router with the piece clamped to the bench and taking incremental passes with a plunge router with stops clamped or hot melt glued to the piece to stop the router base. Then cut the piece to size on the table saw.

Or move my RAS to rip, put in the dado, clamp down the piece and lower the blade. I think the RAS would be my last choice.

Or score the dado sides, and use a router plane.

I'd have to noodle this looking at the board and the magnetic attachment that apparently fits inside the dado.

I am super-scared of table saws, and have been using them since I was 14 years old. Call it unreasonable fear or a healthy respect, but I noodle cuts like these, often sleeping on the technique, googling the technique, rehearsing the proposed moves, trying hold downs, and weighing alternative ways to make the cut. I usually do offbeat cuts like these first thing in the morning, not when I am tired, and after my morning coffee.

But clarify for me how you would use a stop block on a table saw dado blade set up, because I'm not understanding.

[Randall J Cox]

Goodwin, so sorry to here about your accident. I'm 75 and have been a hobbiest woodworker for over 35 years. I remember something from USAF pilot training way back when. Most pilot errors happen well after pilot training and about a couple years into flying. We become complacent. And this is certainly not aimed at you. I know I find my mind wandering sometimes in the shop and I know that's dangerous. Or if you want to make just one more cut and your already tired. Stay focused I keep telling myself. I also realize a lot of the folks on this forum do this for a living and have to deal with deadlines and long days in the shop. Anyway, hope you heal soon and thank you for sharing this, hopefully it will make us all think about safety. Randy

[Thomas McCurnin]

Thank you Mark. I have been woodworking since 1965. There are some operations that I feel uncomfortable doing. A man has got to know his limitations. The point of my post is that there is no single way to perform the technique calling for a double stopped dado, some methods are more comfortable to some woodworkers, and others are not. Many ways to skin the cat.

[Warren Lake]

I typed a long response but dont feel like seeing myself talk

Thomas yes there are often different ways to do cuts, most of what you said is unrealistic for anyone who makes a living at this, your radial is not a consideration. My post answered three ways to do stops for that though. Sounds like a thing you will not be doing. I didnt use stops very often but they are wise.

I dont even now what to say about being afraid. That is a concern.

[Thomas McCurnin]

I could make a 3/8" double stopped dado 12 " long using a sharp router plane in about 10 minutes or less. Heck, probably close to 5 minutes. It would be about 10 passes with a router plane. Done. No set up, no blade changes, no dado, no jigs, no guards, no stop blocks, no hold downs.

Meanwhile, it would take me an hour to build your jig. Heck, changing a blade to a dado, running some test cuts, then performing a double stopped dado would take me 15-30 minutes. Set up for a plunge router would also take about 30 minutes. I believe the OP is a hobbyist. To your point, if was in the business of making these and had to make 50-100 of them, I would just buy a CNC.

Afraid? Well, lets call it a healthy respect for power tools and what they can do. When I was 14 years old, I was using a Rocket Brand 20" RAS to build homes, and yes, cross-cutting, ripping and yes plunge cutting with it. Great machine. Dangerous? Yes, but only if one is not trained to use it. We also used a lot of hand tools and were trained by the Union to use them.

I have all my fingers and I've suffered no injuries.

[Warren Lake]

Not a chance. The jig takes very little time and id have 50 cut while you were still playing. Try making a living in the trade for 40 years then we can talk about it.

Behind afraid and having respect for machines are two different things.

The real problem with many is they have never been trained. Accidents happen three times the speed of lighting the acceleration from a table saw is staggering. If no one ever taught them then will learn what you did wrong after its happened. I wrote a long email, didnt need to hear myself preach. Its often thankless anyway.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Tom,

It seems that I have got you on the defensive, I apologize for that, my comments are simply my opinion on the topics in this discussion. You bought up the fear factor, I see that as an indicator of a problem, I addressed why I think that. It was not personal.

My interest in participating in the conversation is to analyze and understand how and why the accident happened, and to discuss how the operation could have been done safer.

Woodworking is not some mystical operation, machines and tools (with some exceptions) don't have a mind of there own. they don't actually randomly decide to grab your timber out of your hand and pull you into the cutter.

There are (for the most part) predictable reasons for what happens.

Mostly the reason can be traced to human error. A lack of knowledge and understanding of the mechanics of what the operator is doing, sometimes a momentary distraction, lack of focus etc. But there are reasons for the result.

In the case of the accident in this discussion the OP knows that he made errors that resulted in his injury and was kind enough to post his story for the safety of all the rest of us. We all make errors, so, there is no shame in that, I have made quite a few myself. But this is a good time to discuss what happened and to understand why and how it happened to spread some knowledge and help others work safer.


In my opinion it would seem;
The accident happened because the OP did not maintain control of the stock!

The problem is, he chose a method that relied 100% on his ability to physically control the feeding of the stock.

The method chosen in this case, was the most risky…. by far. with Zero margin for error! and almost guaranteed injury if you screw up.

I usually see people taking risks for rewards, the reason for the OP’s choice is unclear to me, I see no benefit in time saving, just increased risk of injury.

If you don't maintain constant control of the stock, then you give control to the cutter and the mechanics of it will grab and propel the wood across the cutter, dragging your hand across the cutter in a split second.

The injury to his hand was caused because his hand was on the outfeed side of the tablesaw behind the blade when the accident happened. The speed of the accident leaves no time for reaction, and draws the operators hand towards the cutter.

Stops to register the wood against would have prevented the wood from shooting away.

Placing ones hands on the infeed side would have prevented the injury when not using stops, and would be a double security when using stops.

" drop-cuts" are dangerous, as is everything in and out of the shop. There are levels of danger and ways to cope.


If you have ever done pin routing you are essentially doing drop-cutting, or template shaping on a shaper. It is done all the time. It requires understanding of the mechanics, full concentration and firm control, and If you can, a good escape route...just in case.

The good escape route is mostly about being able to predict problems that could occur and choosing appropriate hand placement to avoid injury if/when a problem should occur.

There are times and reasons when you work without a safety net, but you have to give that due consideration, because the chances of an error are greater as are the consequences.


And What Warren said.

[Mike King]

https://www.finewoodworking.com/proj...assembly-dados

[Scott Clausen]

Goodwin, so sorry. This is one of those "it happened so fast" type of stories. I did get a Saw Stop as insurance in this type of event but don't use it much since going mostly hand tool. Watched (Frank's Workbench) this morning on a stopped dado using hand tools. I thought, I need to try that.

[Edward Weber]

In my mind, the problem here was a misunderstanding of the mechanics of using machinery. What people intuit is going to happen vs what happens in the physical world can be two very different things.

I have to agree
I've been try to teach people for many many years that, if they know all the limits and capabilities of their tools (power or hand) they will be a better and safer woodworker.
Which way the blade is spinning, which way to feed the wood, which direction the force is applied and so on.

I hope the OP heals well and I appreciate his willingness to share his experience. I also would like to applaud him in his quest for answers and a better understanding of what happened.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Goodwin, I hope you heal completely and quickly I always consider posts like these as Public Service Announcements and Reminders.

A decade or so ago, while routing half-lapped joints for a wood storage rack, I answered a phone call from my youngest son who told me his wife had come through surgery fine. As I remember it, this was her 3rd surgery in 12 months. I hung up, restarted the DC. I had an open 4" hose sitting by the 2x4's I was routing. I finished the current 1/4" removal, turned off the router, unlocked it so I could adjust the depth to the next 1/4" stop, flipped the router over. As I depressed the base down to the new setting, I glanced at phone across the room thinking of the DIL. The bit hadn't quite stopped yet when it made contact with my right wrist. Similar to your situation, my wife was at the school where she had retired having lunch with some of her former coworkers. I grabbed a rag, wrapped it around my wrist. My right hand was having seizures and I had difficulties using the fob to turn off the DC. I ran next door and luckily the neighbors were home. As the husband and wife drove me to the local medical center, they called my wife on her cell. 14 stitches later I came home. Though I temporarily had a numb streak between my right thumb and forefinger, it eventually went away and I also have complete use of my dominant right hand.

We all make mistakes and not focusing on the job at hand is one of the most critical ones.

Thanks again for posting!

[Scott Bernstein]

Goodwin - very sorry to hear about your accident; I'm glad you are (relatively) OK and you were able to maintain most of the functionality of your hand. Not really much consolation, but it could have been worse. I need my hands in my real job, so when I started woodworking I bought a sawstop. Not a perfect solution, but it goes a long way to improving safety. In Norma Abram's old shows, I think he always raised the blade into the wood as has been stated here. In my own shop, I would have done this operation on my Router Boss, which can handle longer pieces (up to 48"). The workpiece is clamped down into a sliding cradle and the operator turns a hand crank which moves the piece through the cut. Unlike a router table the bit is face down, which means the cut is facing towards you. Another handle raises and lowers the router into the work. Stops can be applied to control the length of the dado. And the dust collection is pretty good. Second best would be a router table, raising the bit into the work and taking shallow cuts. Lastly, a handheld router with some sort of straightedge and stops. Or hand tools of course!

Good luck!