Entry Door Construction Methods

[Patrick Kane]

My parents are updating their house(originally built by my grandparents after the war from '46-50), and my mom just shared a few quotes to replace the front and back entry doors as well as two fiberglass storm doors. Nothing unusual about the storm doors--I think they were $1500 a piece installed--but the mahogany entry doors were $12k a piece installed. I am not denigrating any craftsperson's product or their right to make a fair wage, but $24,000 for two 36"x84" doors blew me away. I didnt get the details on the doors, but they were a mission style/craftsman style door with some glazing. I assume it was an engineered core with mahogany veneer. Naturally, the prices got me thinking about doing them a favor and making two doors. Ive only made two doors in my life, and i do not recall it being too difficult, but the bar was pretty low. They were 8' tall and 25-27" wide double doors for my timber frame shed. I made my own stavecore out of construction lumber, skinned the rails/stiles with 1/8-1/4" thick shop sawn poplar veneer, and took two old windows from a nearby flip's dumpster for the glazing. They are a year or two old now and work just fine. It doesnt appear like they have warped at all, but i noticed one of the panels cracked a bit. They are painted dark blue and have a 2' overhang above, but they get blasted with sun all day long, so im not surprised. They are south facing. Its one thing to make doors for a shed when the stakes are low and it doesnt matter if they warp or not. This is a different thing entirely, and why i want to ask for tips and links to additional information. Ive looked on woodweb and it seems a lot of people have varying opinions on entry door construction methods. Only do 1.75" thick entry doors out of solid wood, because its been done that way for centuries versus the other guys saying all solid wood doors warp and stavecore/engineered core doors are the only acceptable contemporary door construction. Ideally, i would do 8/4 sapele rails/stiles and separate interior/exterior panels with some form of insulation inbetween(if possible). Im not opposed to sourcing some engineered core product or making my own stavecore rails and stiles, however. Next, is it easier/better to make a new jamb and sill and prehang the door in my shop? Its more work, but im guessing it would make installation a heck of a lot easier. Lastly, what are new techniques/products of the last 30 years that i might not know about? I watched a few youtube videos last night, and this australian guy had a clever aluminum weatherstripping product that you put into a dado in the bottom of the door. As you closed the door into its final position, the spring loaded aluminum strip would pop out and go into a dado/rebate in the sill(i assume, i didnt actually see the sill in the video). Anything interesting on the hinge or hardware side of things?

Overall, id consider myself to be a competent builder. I have a felder saw/shaper and domino 700 for the shaping/joinery of the door. If i had some basic direction or guidelines, im fairly confident i can put out two quality doors that are maybe 8/10 as good as the aforementioned $12k doors. That could be misplaced confidence, which is what im here for. Is this best left to pro shops? Does anyone have a good source for door construction methods? I put a library hold on a few of the top rated amazon books on doormaking, but some critique them of being 30 years outdated. I tried searching for a paid vocational training online, but i cant find anything specific to entry door making. Happy to pay for good content and information if its available.

[Kevin Jenness]

Yes, you can make acceptable doors with your equipment. It's not rocket surgery, but it does require attention to a lot of details.

Most door makers these days use laminated parts ("engineered") and there are many options there. I've made strip-laminated cores out of the face material, used finger-jointed "stave core" pine, face-laminated 3 layers of 4/4 for 2 1/4" doors and used solid wood. The laminated parts are a bit more predictable but solid is fine if well selected and acclimated before assembly. The 1 3/4" mahogany doors in my house are solid and have remained twist-free for 20 years. I would suggest making 2 1/4" doors if using insulated panels.

Some will insist on integral tenons, but stub tenons plus multiple long dominos will work. Fitting new doors into old jambs can be done, but proper weatherstripping may be a challenge. Conservation Technology has a bulb system with a kerf routed into the stop corner. http://conservationtechnology.com/bu...therseals.html If making new jambs I like silicone rubber leafseals. Active door sweeps are a good idea. They typically have a rubber gasket on the bottom that drop down on the sill. Conservation Technology has one as does Pemco. Other than adjustable hinges there aren't a lot of innovations I know of for normal doors. I would suggest you order a copy of David Sochar's book on doormaking https://www.amazon.com/Small-Shop-Pr.../dp/1736707507

[Richard Coers]

DO NOT use construction grade lumber to make you stave cores, it can be 19% moisture and above. Use kiln dried or order them online. I've made several passage doors, including church and commercial applications. I have only used solid wood. This is the book you need to find. https://www.amazon.com/Small-Shop-Pr.../dp/1736707507

[Patrick Kane]

DO NOT use construction grade lumber to make you stave cores, it can be 19% moisture and above. Use kiln dried or order them online. I've made several passage doors, including church and commercial applications. I have only used solid wood. This is the book you need to find. https://www.amazon.com/Small-Shop-Pr.../dp/1736707507

Yes, yes, of course. That was more a reference towards how slack-jawed my previous attempt was--dumpster diving for windows and using studs as the core--and the doors turned out perfectly fine. Was just in the shed 3 hours ago and they are working very well and look good minus the panel crack. It looks like it might be a TBIII failure from the heat.

These doors would be KD sapele or similar commercially sourced core. Im not looking to cheap out on this build whatsoever. Thats why im asking about new methods or features, because if the hardware, wood, and weather stripping ends up costing $2500 then its a bargain compared to the alternative.

Kevin, you bring up another good reason to remake the sill and jamb. I originally thoguht it would make installation easier, but to your point it takes into account contemporary weather stripping that a 1948 build did not. By the way, these are solid wood doors that are still semi-functional, but the seal around the door's perimeter sucks, and the back door is cracked through on the bottom panel. The back door has a screendoor/storm door and is part of a covered porch that faces south. The covered porch is 25'x35', so its fairly sheltered from sun and rain. The front door faces north, never sees the sun, and also has a storm door. Both environments were a factor in me thinking i could tackle this without having a crappy warped door in 2023.

Thanks for the door recommendation. Says something that it popped up in 2/2 replies to this thread.

[Edward Weber]

I always remind people when building doors to OVER-build them. Many people don't quite appreciate just how much a door goes through in it's life.
Make everything as heavy-duty as possible while keeping the aesthetic you want. While I like the sound of 8/4 sapale, it can warp like any other species.
There are plenty of methods to keep the door straight and resist warping The easiest is to laminate the inside and outside halves. It won't take away from the look but will add stability. This method would also allow you to embed a metal frame or corner brackets inside the door, if that's something you think you need.
Just some thoughts

[Phillip Mitchell]

I’ll give David’s book a 3rd ringing endorsement. Read it cover to cover when it first showed up and have been referencing it again lately as I’m about to start a door build as well (interior)

I could say some things based on my limited door experiences, but am short on time currently and will revisit this thread and add some thoughts later. Go ahead and spend the $60 or whatever it is for David’s book and that will be a great reference for solid wood door building.

[David Zaret]

i just finished 9 doors for a custom restoration guy, including two massive doors for a church in detroit. i can't move them alone. anyway, you can definitely make your own doors, and i echo everything that's been stated so far. i use timberstrand to make my cores, and i use unibond urea resin glue - both with great success. the doors i made this way 10 years ago still look great and are dead nuts flat and stable.

lately i've started buying 1/16" thick veneer from Certainly Wood and using that as my skins, but you can, of course, also shop-saw your own skins. my suggestion is to use a hard, waterproof glue rather than a PVA, especially for the skins to the cores.

--- dz

[Kevin Jenness]

These doors would be KD sapele or similar commercially sourced core. Im not looking to cheap out on this build whatsoever. Thats why im asking about new methods or features, because if the hardware, wood, and weather stripping ends up costing $2500 then its a bargain compared to the alternative.

Kevin, you bring up another good reason to remake the sill and jamb. I originally thoguht it would make installation easier, but to your point it takes into account contemporary weather stripping that a 1948 build did not. By the way, these are solid wood doors that are still semi-functional, but the seal around the door's perimeter sucks, and the back door is cracked through on the bottom panel. The back door has a screendoor/storm door and is part of a covered porch that faces south. The covered porch is 25'x35', so its fairly sheltered from sun and rain. The front door faces north, never sees the sun, and also has a storm door. Both environments were a factor in me thinking i could tackle this without having a crappy warped door in 2023.

Thanks for the door recommendation. Says something that it popped up in 2/2 replies to this thread.

Personally I would prefer Sipo (Utile) over Sapele for exterior millwork,

I don't want to dissuade you from making new doors, but you may want to consider rehabbing the old ones depending how thrashed they are. You could retrofit new weatherstrip to the old jambs, add active sweeps, rout out and replace the cracked panel and refinish. If new doors are in the budget and they want to change the look go for it, but you may be able to preserve the old ones if they are worth it.

If you do build new (or just want to expand your knowledge) look for posts by Joe Calhoon and David Sochar both here and at Woodweb for details. Everybody has an opinion, but those guys are real experts with decades of doorbuilding experience.

[John TenEyck]

I've built a few exterior doors. I used stave core with all of them; all have remained flat. Two are Sapele; no issues. One faces due west with no cover and gets blasted by the sun, as well as rain and snow. It has a Pemco drop bottom seal which I had to use because the stone sill has a 1/4" drop. Anyway, the drop bottom seal fits into a large dado in the bottom of the rail and stiles. The door is now 4 or 5 years old and I can see a crack in the glue joint between the stiles and bottom rail right in front of that dado. The joints are tight up where the tenons are but a crack of any kind isn't good. Long story to say I would not use a hidden bottom seal again unless absolutely forced to like I was in this situation.

That rear door on your parents' home faces south, correct. If so, I would not have a storm door over a wood door if it gets any amount of sun unless it's a vented one. An unvented storm door will just cook the door behind it, even more so if it's a dark color.

Do not use TB III to glue up the door panels. It has a habit of letting go if it gets hot in the sun. I use epoxy for all panels and joinery.

I really like Cetol Door and Window finish on exterior wood doors. It has held up great on that west facing door. After 3 years I could see it was fading and at 4 years I helped the owner apply two new coats of finish to it after very gentle scuff sanding. It looks brand new again. Read up on the product. I recommend it w/o hesitation.

You've got more than enough equipment to make the doors. It's a rewarding process to build doors, and your parents will think of you every time they open/close one of them, so build them well.

John

[Mel Fulks]

I think there is a lot of good coverage in this thread . But I would not make stave core stiles out of mahogany plies and pieces. Nor would
would I smash two diamonds with a hammer ,mix in epoxy ,and be proud of “making a really BIG diamond !” In a couple of employments
I was asked to make stave core mahogany stiles and I refused. I retired about 12 years ago. Now if mahogany quality has gone down …then
stave-core might be the only choice.

[Joe Calhoon]

Mel, great analogy with the diamonds! Agree totally! I only use stave core when making doors out of difficult or unstable material. Avoid Khaya and Sapele mahogany for doors. Use soid 10/4 Sipo- Utile or Genuine South American if you have access to it. Avoid Pemco drop bottoms. They require a huge cavity and don’t work well. The Swiss made bottoms from Resource Conservation are the way to go. Their adjustable bottoms are good also.
Any more I avoid film finishes on doors that get much sun. I like exterior oil. We used Cetol door and window for a few years. It’s not as bad as spar varnish on a door but not great either. Never a problem with TB3 here but it has a inconsistent viscosity and you need to stir the material when you get it and watch the dates. Jowat has a PVA door and window glue that I want to try.

[Curt Harms]

.........................................
Do not use TB III to glue up the door panels. It has a habit of letting go if it gets hot in the sun. I use epoxy for all panels and joinery.
.........................................
John

First time I'd heard that but it may explain why I had joint failures on a little outdoor project. SWMBO loves feeding squirrels so I built a little 'house' to put the seed in. White oak no finish. The roof was 3 boards glued with TBIII. First one joint failed followed not long after by the other two. I thought maybe the glue was too old but perhaps not. Or maybe it was a combination of factors but a rebuild is on the docket.

[mreza Salav]

Years ago I was building our house and I too was shocked at the price tag I got for a custom made wooden door ($27k). I ended up building my own out of Mahogany, 2.25"x42"x96". It is documented here:
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....s-)&highlight=

and some here

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....65#post2306065

I asked lots of questions and educated myself. The door has withheld extremely well in our very harsh climate (summers in +30C to -30C). I used General Finish exterior topcoat and every three years I scuff sand and apply one more coat. Stave core construction with traditional M/T joinery, west system epoxy. The door alone is over 200lb.

[Patrick Kane]

I first noticed TBIII and heat 7-8 years ago when i made end grain cutting boards to pay for shop tools. I took a cutting board to the office with me, which was closer to the buyer. After sitting in my hatchback's trunk in the summer heat, i saw some of the gluelines separate ever so slightly on the edges of the board. I still use a bunch of TBIII, but i know its not ideal in exterior conditions involving the sun. I have no experience with weldwood or similar unibond. I avoided them in the past due to health risks. Ill have to break that rule this time around.

I ordered the book last night and look forward to the read. I dont think there is a problem going thicker than 1.75". Why would you not use stave core with utile/sapele? Are you saying the lumber itself is stable enough on its own to not require the effort of ripping and gluing? Im very inclined to stick to solid wood, if i can. To the point where i will buy extra lumber to allow me the chance to mill and let it sticker for awhile to see if it moves much before constructing the door. Thanks for the advice on Utile. It looks very similar to Sapele to me, but if its more stable outside then im all for it. I think the price is very similar.

I have three different sets of steel body insert cabinet cope/stick profiles. Two ogees and a shaker set. I then have a couple panel raisers. Has anyone used cabinet sets before for entry doors? Was it acceptable or was the profile underwhelming looking? Anything less than the $2500 Rangate set that you would recommend? I have a Felder 700 class shaper, so i dont want to spin absolutely massive tooling. Also, ill use floating M&T, so i dont need to make integral tenons.

[Kevin Jenness]

I first noticed TBIII and heat 7-8 years ago when i made end grain cutting boards to pay for shop tools. I took a cutting board to the office with me, which was closer to the buyer. After sitting in my hatchback's trunk in the summer heat, i saw some of the gluelines separate ever so slightly on the edges of the board. I still use a bunch of TBIII, but i know its not ideal in exterior conditions involving the sun. I have no experience with weldwood or similar unibond. I avoided them in the past due to health risks. Ill have to break that rule this time around.

I ordered the book last night and look forward to the read. I dont think there is a problem going thicker than 1.75". Why would you not use stave core with utile/sapele? Are you saying the lumber itself is stable enough on its own to not require the effort of ripping and gluing? Im very inclined to stick to solid wood, if i can. To the point where i will buy extra lumber to allow me the chance to mill and let it sticker for awhile to see if it moves much before constructing the door. Thanks for the advice on Utile. It looks very similar to Sapele to me, but if its more stable outside then im all for it. I think the price is very similar.

I have three different sets of steel body insert cabinet cope/stick profiles. Two ogees and a shaker set. I then have a couple panel raisers. Has anyone used cabinet sets before for entry doors? Was it acceptable or was the profile underwhelming looking? Anything less than the $2500 Rangate set that you would recommend? I have a Felder 700 class shaper, so i dont want to spin absolutely massive tooling. Also, ill use floating M&T, so i dont need to make integral tenons.

I generally use epoxy for exterior doors. It is water resistant, has a long working time and lets the joints slide together easily.

I am fine with solid wood doors as long as appropriate material is selected and allowed time to show any movement between roughing out and final processing/assembly. Laminated parts are less likely to move than randomly selected lumber and may be more easily sourced in some species and thicknesses so they are widely used in the trade. Try getting well dried 10/4 or 12/4 white oak at a reasonable price.

It's unlikely that cabinet door profiles will scale up well, but that's your call. There are plenty of affordable brazed carbide sets available for low production from various makers. For Craftsman style doors a groover and two matched square cutters will do the job.