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Thread: Dust Collector VFD selection and speed questions

  1. #1
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    Dust Collector VFD selection and speed questions

    I am in planning project mode for a new ClearVue 5HP 3 phase dust collector. It will be run from a VFD. However, I have not found a whole lot of documented experience with dust collectors and VFD (only general information). So, I have a couple questions.

    Question #1 - Do any of you have direct experience with specific VFDs running a 3-phase dust collector? I am currently doing a selection process and the results are all over the board. I do know that the VFDs which are 3-phase input will need to be de-rated (i.e. doubled in amperage/size) if you are using single phase source. However, the VFDs that are "single phase input to 3 phase output" are configured to support full amperage/capacity without the need to double the VFD size. My understanding is that it mostly has to do with input diode capability (but I could be wrong). When searching for VFD choices, I see a variety of results. The following are all specifically 5HP "single phase input" models.

    First are the higher price results.

    Eaton 5HP ($634) - this is the largest in physical size. It actually matches the physical size of the bigger ATO 7.5HP VFD.
    https://www.grainger.com/product/EAT...ve-240V-20RA66

    Invertek 5HP IP 20 ($610)
    https://www.wolfautomation.com/ac-dr...-240v-1-phase/

    Invertek 5HP IP66 ($850) - Interestingly, this model is specifically listed as being "dust tight" and water resistant.
    https://www.wolfautomation.com/vfd-5...se-input-3-ph/



    In the middle level, I found the ATO 5HP Single Phase to Three Phase VFD ($294)
    https://www.ato.com/5hp-vfd



    Both the Invertek and ATO have very large and detailed documentation online IN ENGLISH!!. ATO manual is 169 pages. Invertek models have a general manual and an advanced technical manual at about 50 pages each. I could not find any documentation for Eaton. Their web pages seem to hint that they want contractors to sign up for training programs on these types of products.

    The ATO has a built-in potentiometer knob on the front face. The Eaton and Invertek will need to have an external potentiometer wired in and configured for speed control.


    Then there is a multitude of cheaper Chinese import models available in the $150-200 price range. These are actually smaller in physical size than the ATO/Invertek. These are brands such as Mollom, Huanyang, HKS, Lapond, Vevor, XCFDP, etc., etc. When doing a detailed look on these cheaper ones, a lot of them appear to be half-baked designs with lacking functionality and potential unforeseen implementation issues. They are also all very small in physical size compared to the ATO/Invertek (this tells me there's not much inside or uses cheap components/capacitors, etc.). Interestingly, all these cheaper items have a good number of reviews on Amazon with a 4+ star average rating There's almost no reviews on ATO VFDs on Amazon (maybe because most people are cheap).

    I am leaning towards ATO because of documentation, support and perceived quality level. I know that Chris Parks has recommended Huanyang and Powtran. Huanyang does not have a working front panel potentiometer and I cannot find a good source for Powtran.

    Does anyone here have direct practical experience with these items that can provide a recommendation?




    Question #2 - What is the slowest speed to safely run this motor on the dust collector. It's going to be a 5HP Baldor 3 phase motor. I have seen some recommendations that speed should not ever be below 80% of specification, but I think that mostly has to do with single phase capacitor-start motors. I know that there is going to be a minimum speed required to get the 4000FPM required to pull dust through the ducts. However, I want to drop the speed to reduce noise as much as possible (with the understanding that I'll have to crank it back up if I run multiple tools.
    Last edited by Aaron Inami; 07-08-2022 at 2:07 PM.

  2. #2
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    For a dc you do not need any special functions. No braking needed. Let it coast down. Lock out reverse. Set acceleration longer then 5 seconds or more.
    It has been interesting to watch my variable speed pool pump. The controller has readouts for watts and rpms. With a pressure gauge on the filter. I often run it at 15% watts at 1/3 RPM and still see a good flow but almost zero pressure.
    Bill D

  3. #3
    I run a Clearvue Pentz EF-5 w/ 5Hp/3ph/240V motor on Huanyang VFD (1ph input) w/ eMylo remote (2 keyfobs).

    Add my 'second' for Mr. Dufour's recommendations. ...I run a 10s. accel time (recently dropped from 20s.); I get a cut setup then hit the DC 'go' button; gives me 10s of clear-mind-concentrate-on-cut time. I use the keypad speed adjustment, but have never found any practical need to adjust it. I just run at 60hz.

    The only low limit on a motor speed is typically the cooling. Assuming a TEFC motor, you need enough speed for the (motor) fan to move enough air to cool the motor. A good rule of thumb for continuous operation is a low limit of 25% speed (=15Hz). You could go lower for short intervals, but at that point your DC impellor is just stirring the air (...its not doing much at <40% either).

    I've also never found need to overspeed the DC - - tho' easily done. At 60Hz, it suuuaahhh, creates a very low pressure! Eats tape measures, too.

    I think the eMylo was ~$30 on Amazon?? I wasn't expecting much and have been pleasantly surprised - - it works fine, so far.

    If you pursue the HY, I can give you model and settings. Manual is Chinglish, but usable, and only about 3-5 settings need edit.
    Last edited by Malcolm McLeod; 07-08-2022 at 4:09 PM. Reason: typo

  4. #4
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    Hi Malcom. That EF-5 is exactly what I have in mind. That being said, the documentation on the EF-5 states that the Baldor motor is a non-TEFC type. In the pictures, the motor does NOT have the bell housing on the end for the fan and does NOT have the heat sink fins on the motor case. I guess I'll have to talk to Clearvue to see their recommendations on speed and start/stop frequency for that 3-phase motor. From what I understand, it is the single-phase motors that are stressed at startup with heat as a byproduct.

    Interesting on the low end speed. I would not plan to run the motor as low as 15Hz. I was thinking of setting a low point of around 40Hz and then crank it up if I really need to. I will have to see how the unit performs/sounds once it is installed.

    Can you share the exact model of the eMylo remote you have? Based on the ATO documentation, I can add a simple switch/relay to connect the COM and FWD pins on the communications bus to enable run/stop of the VFD. So I would need a simple remote relay for this. Some of the keyfob remote relays appear to output DC or AC (which is what I do NOT want). I may be misunderstanding these items.

  5. #5
    The eMylo is model # R122A, and it is simply a relay that switches the VFD’s IO bus power to the FWD pin, if memory serves (with RF control).

    The only caveat is that on recovery from a power fail, the relay may still be closed - - unless you turn it ‘off’ - - and the DC runs again. Enough of my mind remains that this has so far not been an issue. And I believe most VFDs have a setting to disable this run-on-power-up - - I’m just too lazy to look in the HY.

    Sounds like you may be aware of all this, but just in case…. My DC came with Leeson ‘Wattsaver’ ODP motor; the fan is ‘internal’ and pushes air through the motor, rather than around it. (It is not really drip-proof when mounted vertically.). And I’d use the same speed limits as for TEFC - if I ever adjusted it.

  6. #6
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    My Generic China made VFD specified which of two terminals to connect single phase input. So maybe those two terminals have bigger diodes then three phase would need?
    Bill D

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    My Generic China made VFD specified which of two terminals to connect single phase input. So maybe those two terminals have bigger diodes then three phase would need?
    Bill D
    Most all VFDs that have 3-phase inputs can be run with single phase source. The problem is when your 3-phase motor requires 15 amps, the VFD will need to pull 26-28 amps from the single phase input wiring. A lot of VFD are not designed to handle this much current on the inputs, especially as you go up the HP levels (it can overheat those specific circuits or blow out the input diodes). It's fine if your actual load is much less than the VFD capability (essentially half or under).

  8. #8
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    Note that many of the cheap VFD's have brake terminals that are not actually connected to anything. I have one like that. But that does not mater for a dc since you should not apply any braking to it anyway.
    Bill D

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Inami View Post
    I am in planning project mode for a new ClearVue 5HP 3 phase dust collector. It will be run from a VFD. However, I have not found a whole lot of documented experience with dust collectors and VFD (only general information). So, I have a couple questions.

    Question #1 - Do any of you have direct experience with specific VFDs running a 3-phase dust collector? I am currently doing a selection process and the results are all over the board. I do know that the VFDs which are 3-phase input will need to be de-rated (i.e. doubled in amperage/size) if you are using single phase source. However, the VFDs that are "single phase input to 3 phase output" are configured to support full amperage/capacity without the need to double the VFD size. My understanding is that it mostly has to do with input diode capability (but I could be wrong). When searching for VFD choices, I see a variety of results. The following are all specifically 5HP "single phase input" models.

    First are the higher price results.

    Eaton 5HP ($634) - this is the largest in physical size. It actually matches the physical size of the bigger ATO 7.5HP VFD.
    https://www.grainger.com/product/EAT...ve-240V-20RA66

    Invertek 5HP IP 20 ($610)
    https://www.wolfautomation.com/ac-dr...-240v-1-phase/

    Invertek 5HP IP66 ($850) - Interestingly, this model is specifically listed as being "dust tight" and water resistant.
    https://www.wolfautomation.com/vfd-5...se-input-3-ph/



    In the middle level, I found the ATO 5HP Single Phase to Three Phase VFD ($294)
    https://www.ato.com/5hp-vfd



    Both the Invertek and ATO have very large and detailed documentation online IN ENGLISH!!. ATO manual is 169 pages. Invertek models have a general manual and an advanced technical manual at about 50 pages each. I could not find any documentation for Eaton. Their web pages seem to hint that they want contractors to sign up for training programs on these types of products.

    The ATO has a built-in potentiometer knob on the front face. The Eaton and Invertek will need to have an external potentiometer wired in and configured for speed control.


    Then there is a multitude of cheaper Chinese import models available in the $150-200 price range. These are actually smaller in physical size than the ATO/Invertek. These are brands such as Mollom, Huanyang, HKS, Lapond, Vevor, XCFDP, etc., etc. When doing a detailed look on these cheaper ones, a lot of them appear to be half-baked designs with lacking functionality and potential unforeseen implementation issues. They are also all very small in physical size compared to the ATO/Invertek (this tells me there's not much inside or uses cheap components/capacitors, etc.). Interestingly, all these cheaper items have a good number of reviews on Amazon with a 4+ star average rating There's almost no reviews on ATO VFDs on Amazon (maybe because most people are cheap).

    I am leaning towards ATO because of documentation, support and perceived quality level. I know that Chris Parks has recommended Huanyang and Powtran. Huanyang does not have a working front panel potentiometer and I cannot find a good source for Powtran.

    Does anyone here have direct practical experience with these items that can provide a recommendation?




    Question #2 - What is the slowest speed to safely run this motor on the dust collector. It's going to be a 5HP Baldor 3 phase motor. I have seen some recommendations that speed should not ever be below 80% of specification, but I think that mostly has to do with single phase capacitor-start motors. I know that there is going to be a minimum speed required to get the 4000FPM required to pull dust through the ducts. However, I want to drop the speed to reduce noise as much as possible (with the understanding that I'll have to crank it back up if I run multiple tools.
    I guess I would have more experience than most with VFD's & Dust extractors as 99% of Clearvues sold in Oz use a VFD to power them. Early in the introduction to Oz we used Huanyang and then moved to Powtran because Huanyang became unavailable. One installation has been running for about 8 years every day and the VFD has been faultless and I only know of a handful that have given trouble. I run my CV at 70hz and have been doing that for years with no problems but it raises the noise level and some may find that intolerable. The original plan for the Max was for it to be run at 50hz outside the US domestic market and at that speed it matched the 1800 running at 60hz. A temperature sensor could be put on the motor and the VFD programmed to shut down if the motor got to hot when running slower. To give you some sort of idea I reckon there are close to 1000 clearvues in Oz and 950 of them would be using a VFD.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  10. #10
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    A general rule is that a 20% increase or decrease in rpm/Hz is fine with no special provisions for cooling or special VFD rated motor. Motors older then 1970 or so the insulation may be a consideration.
    Bill D

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm McLeod View Post
    I run a Clearvue Pentz EF-5 w/ 5Hp/3ph/240V motor on Huanyang VFD (1ph input) w/ eMylo remote (2 keyfobs).

    Add my 'second' for Mr. Dufour's recommendations. ...I run a 10s. accel time (recently dropped from 20s.); I get a cut setup then hit the DC 'go' button; gives me 10s of clear-mind-concentrate-on-cut time. I use the keypad speed adjustment, but have never found any practical need to adjust it. I just run at 60hz.

    The only low limit on a motor speed is typically the cooling. Assuming a TEFC motor, you need enough speed for the (motor) fan to move enough air to cool the motor. A good rule of thumb for continuous operation is a low limit of 25% speed (=15Hz). You could go lower for short intervals, but at that point your DC impellor is just stirring the air (...its not doing much at <40% either).

    I've also never found need to overspeed the DC - - tho' easily done. At 60Hz, it suuuaahhh, creates a very low pressure! Eats tape measures, too.

    I think the eMylo was ~$30 on Amazon?? I wasn't expecting much and have been pleasantly surprised - - it works fine, so far.

    If you pursue the HY, I can give you model and settings. Manual is Chinglish, but usable, and only about 3-5 settings need edit.

    Malcolm, can you link which eMylo remote you used? Also which Huanyang VFD you picked? I'm looking at a Lapond (I've used them in the past, so I guess there's some familiarity), but open to other options.

    Thanks,
    Ben

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Grefe View Post
    Malcolm, can you link which eMylo remote you used? Also which Huanyang VFD you picked? I'm looking at a Lapond (I've used them in the past, so I guess there's some familiarity), but open to other options.

    Thanks,
    Ben
    If you know a sparky or someone else who is familiar with a brand of VFD I would recommend you use that brand. The Chinese manuals can be a real challenge to interpret, we had a problem a few years ago with programming and it took Powtran techs working with our tech 24 hours to work out that a decimal point had been transposed when the manual was printed.

    Malcolm's comments are valid, he has a 16" impeller and mine is a 15" and I am trying to match the performance of the 16" because changing will cost me at least $2000 if not more. At the same time it is possible to wind down the performance for noise reasons using a VFD.
    Last edited by Chris Parks; 07-17-2022 at 1:42 AM.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  13. #13
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    Off the topic, but why would you want to slow the motor on a dust collector? I've never seen a situation where the DC moved too much air.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger wiegand View Post
    Off the topic, but why would you want to slow the motor on a dust collector? I've never seen a situation where the DC moved too much air.
    Noise reasons can be one reason, let's say at night where others are trying to sleep in the same building or neighbours could be disturbed. Another is to turn the air over in a workshop where machining has finished but dust levels are still high but no machines are being used. The latter is something that I suggest for wood working clubs especially if any members have asthma or respiratory problems of that nature. A VFD can be used to automatically return a dust extractor to that mode after machining stops and ramps up to full speed when a machine is turned on. This requires detection at the machine(s) to make this sort of control possible of course. Basically the air is being scrubbed and fresh air is being pulled in but I have never tried it with recirculated air as I have no experience there as we exhaust to the atmosphere for all installations.

    Any suggestion of control by a VFD can only be applied to 3 phase machinery which in Australia is quite common, the VFD is powered from a single phase to produce 3 phase for the motor. If we did not do that then the motor would be turning at 33% slower than if it was being used in the US. 3 phase gives far more control and with the advent of cheap VFD's I can't see any reason to buy single phase DE equipment. When I first started selling CV Cyclones a VFD was a pretty rare beast but not these days.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  15. #15
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    Thanks, something to think about in the (I hope) unlikely event I need to swap out my DC.

    I'm a fan of three phase motors and VFDs, just had always thought of a DC as an on/off machine. I've used VFDs from Baldor, AEG, and Siemens and they've all worked fine and been pretty straightforward to use.

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