Another "which one?" question

[richard newman]

One idea for holding thin metal I saw that seems to make sense is from the Woodsmith CNC Base Camp. In episode 006, Chris Fitch talks about metal inlays. What he does is use liquid hide glue to secure the sheet metal to an MDF backer. After all the machining is done, he places the back and the metal sandwich in a bucket of warm water for 24 hrs releasing the metal part.

On my list to try. Just got the CNC almost assembled and will be making my first cuts this weekend.

John

I do something similar. For pearl and metal, I glue my blanks to mdf with titebond regular. After cutting, I resaw away as much of the mdf as I dare, and soak what remains in water. Lets go in a few minutes, especially if the water is hot. For wood veneers, I use Duco cement, resaw the mdf away, and then douse with acetone and wrap in aluminum foil. Lets go quickly once again. I don't like to use double face tape if I'm going to cut into it, or for really small items. I like a rigid glue line, and for the small quantities I cut, it's no bother.

[Tony Leonard]

Keep in mind that laser add ons are fine for light engraving work, particularly on wood, but they are low powered and not really good for any kind of cutting other than paper, etc. You also have to deal with the smoke produced. Anyone wanting to do serious laser work is going to be better served by a dedicated machine...but that comes at a cost.

Actually, if you look, they are cutting much more than paper with "add-on" lasers! Cutting right through acrylic, etc. Not exactly low powered!

[Jim Becker]

Actually, if you look, they are cutting much more than paper with "add-on" lasers! Cutting right through acrylic, etc. Not exactly low powered!

There are some new 14w units on the market now, but they are still very limited in capability compared to a dedicated laser. The fume extraction challenge still remains. And never forget to wear the protective eyewear, either, with these low-power lasers.

[John TenEyck]

I compared Avid, OneFinity and Carbide machines. I'll try to attach the spreadsheet and would very much appreciate corrections of the things I mis-understood. But here's a summary of what I think I learned:

Avid 4824 has a 2'x4' surface. There are a number of items you have to add, and there are 2-3 options for each. If you choose the least expensive options (including a router and NEMA 23 steppers), your cost is $7500. If you go to the highest options (with a spindle and NEMA 34 steppers), it's $10,700.

OneFinity X-50 has a 32x48" surface, and can add sections of 2' indefinitely. It can't accept a spindle, (router only). But it can add a laser. Software is V-Carve Pro. Lowest cost $3600, high end is $4500.

Carbide 3D has two models that define the middle- and high-cost choices. "Pro" and "HDM" have a 33x33" bed, and almost no additional costs. Pro uses a router and costs $2800. HDM uses a water-cooled spindle and costs $5400.

Tolerances for all of these are about 5 thou. OneFinity's machine costs $1000 less than Carbide's. My current "hard questions":
- is having a spindle worth $1000?
- can a laser be bolted to a CNC even if the manufacturer didn't do it?

As mentioned by others, you can put a spindle on the 1F, either a 68? mm or an 80 mm. 1F sells the mount but not the spindle itself, giving you the freedom to use any brand you want. For correctness, the Journeyman has a 48 x 32 footprint. It's one of the few hobby level machines that has a 48" X axis. Also, I don't think you can extend the Y axis rails beyond the current 32" capacity unless something has changed and 1F hasn't put it on their website yet. You can use many different software packages with 1F, V-Carve Pro is only one option. That said, if you do use V-Carve Pro you can tile in the Y direction and mill parts of any length. I used that feature once so far, and it worked well.

I've been trying to find out what the accuracy/repeatability of the 1F is. No one on the users forum seems to know. I've seen numbers like 0.001 - 0.005". It has to be better than 0.005". I can make toolpath changes of 0.002 and measure the difference; not sure about 0.001" yet.

To your questions:

Is having a spindle worth $1000? Not yet for me. It may at some point but no time soon.
Can a laser be bolted to a CNC even if the manufacturer didn't do it? Yes, I think so, as long as there is a way to mount it.

John

[Alex Zeller]

I recently did an inlay using skate board veneer (can't find a picture of it ATM). It was football shaped serving platter with the Patriots logo and name. I got red, blue, and white dyed all the way through veneer for it with the tray made out of black walnut. Because it was veneer I couldn't do a V carve inlay. Instead what I did, using the free version of Fusion 360, was just cut a pocket into the tray and then with the veneer glued to some pine I cut out the inlay and then used by bandsaw to slice off the veneer from the pine. I used epoxy to glue it in place to make up for the slightly rough backside of the veneer from the bandsaw. The accuracy was a lot tighter than .005", maybe .001"?

If you aren't doing this to make money you can use Fusion 360 vs buying V Crave Pro. Fusion 360 allows you to use (I suspect V carve and others can do the same) use more than one bit. For the inlay what i did was hog out most of the wood with an 1/8" end mill leaving .004" of extra material and then used the "rest machining" option to remove only the material that the 1/8" end mill couldn't do and the .004" I left using a 1/32" end mill. A 1/32" end mill will not leave a perfectly sharp corner (which is why most people do a V carve inlay) but it's very close.

[David Kenagy]

For working metal like this, you'll get the best results from a machine that's equipped with a spindle that can be directly managed by the CNC machine controller software.

I've narrowed my choice to the OneFinity, which can mount a spindle, but they don't sell or make a recommendation for one. What companies should I look into?

[Jim Becker]

I've narrowed my choice to the OneFinity, which can mount a spindle, but they don't sell or make a recommendation for one. What companies should I look into?

I am not personally familiar with the spindle market, so hopefully, others can make suggestions. My Camaster came with an HSD spindle which is an Italian made, air cooled product. There are options that are more affordable for the more value priced CNC machines...some as low as a couple hundred dollars, but try to balance cost with quality and be sure the spindle uses standard "ER" collets as collets are "disposables" that occasionally need to be replaced. Like if you drop them on a concrete floor.

[Alex Zeller]

I bought an HY (Chinese) spindle from Amazon. I got a 2.2kw package with an HY VFD and a water pump. The water pump was worthless but the spindle and VFD have been great. I was planning on using a name brand water pump anyways (I think I got a Little Giant fountain pump). I was expecting it to be dustier that it is so I got the water cooled spindle. In hindsight it doesn't get that hot in my basement and with a dust shoe that accepts a 4" hose there's almost nothing so I probably would just get an air cooled spindle. I guess if you plan on doing 10 hour long projects water cooled with a water cooler might be worth it. I just use a 3 gallon bucket.

If you want to get a nicer spindle I've heard there's some German ones on the market that are very good. I just didn't want to invest the money until I was certain of what I wanted. As far as the Chinese spindles go you need to get a 2.2kw spindle if you want to use 1/2" shank bits (which I did). You'll want a surfacing bit to flatten the spoilboard. I bought a CMT one with inserts for about $75. It's almost 2 1/2" in diameter so it makes quick work of whatever I'm trying to flatten. I'll often just run the edges of rough cut boards through the jointer to glue up boards then put them onto the spoilboard and manually surface them VS using the jointer and planer.

The CMT bit has a 12mm shank which could be an issue for a router but for a spindle you can get collets of any size. I bought a half dozen balanced nuts for the spindle for cheap and collects for each size I use. The collet snap into the nut so having a set for each size is convenient. Since 12mm isn't used very often the collet and nut stay on the surfacing bit which i store in the plastic box the bit came in.

[Alex Zeller]

This is the spindle I bought from Amazon. The tubing was too short for my setup. This is the water pump. it's not a Little Giant, but a Danner that's made in the US.

[Jim Becker]

I bought an HY (Chinese) spindle from Amazon. I got a 2.2kw package with an HY VFD and a water pump. The water pump was worthless but the spindle and VFD have been great. I was planning on using a name brand water pump anyways (I think I got a Little Giant fountain pump). I was expecting it to be dustier that it is so I got the water cooled spindle. In hindsight it doesn't get that hot in my basement and with a dust shoe that accepts a 4" hose there's almost nothing so I probably would just get an air cooled spindle. I guess if you plan on doing 10 hour long projects water cooled with a water cooler might be worth it. I just use a 3 gallon bucket.

Water cooled spindles seem to be aimed more at the hobbyist machines. Air cooled appears to rule on the more industrial focused CNC setups. Both are just fine if used as designed, regardless of how long you run them.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I have the same spindle as Alex on my Onefinity. It's extremely quiet while spinning at 10K-18K rpm, nothing like any on my traditional Festool, Bosch pr PC wood routers.

I read that a lot of noise from a router is actually air moved by the fan in an air cooled router.

I did install drag chains for my X and Y axis, something the Onefinity does not come with, but was a relatively cheap and easy mod to do. The drag chains also carry the water tubing to and from the spindle.

I have a HD 5 gallon bucket with a small water pump that supplies the spindle and also acts as the return for the water. The water returning from the spindle, while running, rarely gets to 90F, so I don't provide any additional chill/cooling method to the water.

[Gary Campbell]

Guys...
FYI.. I have owned/sold dozens of Chinese spindles from .8kw (1hp) to 3.7kw (5hp). I have been very fortunate, or lets say for the most part my customers have been, in that there has only been 1 failure that I am aware of.

Chinese watercooled spindles got a bad rap for the most part due to cooling failures. One, because the pumps are cheap. And two, and much more prevalent, is that the customers used the stupid water buckets and then let them fill up with sawdust. The pump eventually plugs, overheating the spindle which then blows up. Use a closed system with a radiator and an anti corrosion additive (not antifreeze) and you may run for years.

Are they as good as the US or Italian made spindle units? Maybe not. But any customer (or CNC mfgr) that would select a hand held router, made for occasional use instead of the lowest quality spindle is simply making a mistake.

[Alex Zeller]

I used a plastic bucket that had chlorine tablets in it. The cover twists to lock itself onto the bucket. Both of the water lines go through bulkhead fittings on the bucket itself and the lid has a grommet for the power cord so nothing can get into the bucket. I also have a flow meter on the return line so I can see how much water is flowing. It also has a switch so if the flow gets too low it'll stop the CNC.

[David Buchhauser]

I used a plastic bucket that had chlorine tablets in it. The cover twists to lock itself onto the bucket. Both of the water lines go through bulkhead fittings on the bucket itself and the lid has a grommet for the power cord so nothing can get into the bucket. I also have a flow meter on the return line so I can see how much water is flowing. It also has a switch so if the flow gets too low it'll stop the CNC.

Same here - I use a sealed 5 gallon plastic bucket with hoses going thru grommets in top, flow indicator mounted up next to spindle, and a small amount of anti-freeze added to water to help inhibit any possible corrosion. My 4HP spindle was purchased on Ebay from a seller in Viet Nam. It takes BT30 too holders using ER style collets.

David

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[ChrisA Edwards]

Can you guys post a link to the flow meter please.