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Thread: Felder K500/K700 blade tilt and crosscut fence angle accuracy

  1. #1
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    Felder K500/K700 blade tilt and crosscut fence angle accuracy

    In doing research on Felder/Minimax sliders, I found a couple things I did not like on the Minimax. Hope you guys have some comments.

    On the Minimax (I can't remember if it was SC2C or SC3C):

    - When blade is at exactly 90 degrees and you can adjust your measurement guides to be exact so that when you set your fence/stop at 12", you get a perfect 12" cut. What the video explained was that the Minimax does not have a true trunnion. Instead it has a pivot point. This means when you tilt the blade to something like 45 degrees, it throws off the distance to the fence/stop by as much as 3/16". If you cut 12" at 45 degrees, your piece is now 12-3/16" or 11-13/16" depending on if you are using the crosscut fence or the rip fence.

    - The out-of-the box Minimax had an alignment problem on the crosscut fence angle strip. It was off by a partial degree. When you adjusted the crosscut fence to 20 degrees, the actual could be 20.4 degrees.


    Does anyone know if the Felder equipment has had these types of problems? Do the Felder saws have a true trunnion or is it a pivot point like the Minimax? Is this pivot point design comment in industry sliding tables saws? I would hate to have to constantly do tape/ruler measurements against a tilted blade when setting up a cut.

  2. #2
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    I believe that the 500 series has a simpler trunnion than the 700. Beyond that I can’t comment because my machines are all older than the current machines.

    The angle indices have always been problematic. There are expensive options that allow much more precision such as the DGL attachment. The DGL in various forms appears also on many high dollar saws.
    Last edited by Greg Quenneville; 07-03-2022 at 2:26 PM.

  3. #3
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    The fence angle scale on the Felder (700) is basically useless if you're pulling the fence 'back', because of the geometry. No way to read that accurately. Forward, you might need a test cut if you don't use some other precision reference to check with.

    The longer travel machines with the slotted plates that compensate length, I have no idea.

    AFAIK, the trunnion on the 700 maintains a cut length as you tilt the blade. But I've never cut 2 pieces and held them together to verify that.

  4. #4
    The Felder K500 uses a true double-hung trunion, just like 700-Series. This being said OP, the issue you are mentioning is not a problem in the real world. I sold a million Minimax saws that had the pillow-block saw group and nobody ever complained about it once they actually started using the machine.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Loza View Post
    The Felder K500 uses a true double-hung trunion, just like 700-Series. This being said OP, the issue you are mentioning is not a problem in the real world. I sold a million Minimax saws that had the pillow-block saw group and nobody ever complained about it once they actually started using the machine.

    Erik

    Hi Erik. I spoke to my Felder sales rep today on this subject. For clarification purposes, he said that only the K500S has the same double-trunnion as the K700. The lower models K500 and K500P have the Hammer pillow-block pivot mount which does not keep the measurement distance when tilted.

  6. #6
    I've made a lot of cuts on my Hammer K3 saw featuring the pivot mount arrangement in question and agree with the above opinions that the measurement issue you're asking about likely has little to no consequence in practice. First, I'd estimate 99%-plus of the cuts I've ever made on the saw had the blades at 90 degrees. Granted, woodworkers have diverse interests, and perhaps my estimate is too high for the projects you plan to do...but I'd bet the overwhelming majority of cuts for most of us are at 90 degrees. Second, as soon as the blade (or cross cut fence) moves off 90 degrees, there are going to be a bunch of other variables that come into play, such as whether the blade/fence is actually at the exact angle it needs to be. This means manual set-ups and one or more test cuts are going to be required anyway, even if the fence read correctly for length. ...What I do think is true is that the pivot mount system is not necessarily as robust as the trunnion systems utilized in some of the saws you're comparing against. I have not found this to be a significant negative as a hobbyist, but one needs to be realistic about what manufacturers can deliver for feature sets at given price points.
    Last edited by David Stone (CT); 07-05-2022 at 10:29 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Inami View Post
    Hi Erik. I spoke to my Felder sales rep today on this subject. For clarification purposes, he said that only the K500S has the same double-trunnion as the K700. The lower models K500 and K500P have the Hammer pillow-block pivot mount which does not keep the measurement distance when tilted.
    Ah, yes. Thanks for reminding me. I only ever sold K500Sís, so didnít even think about the smaller K500ís. Like David said, the double-hung trunion is not something a hobbyist woodworker would ever miss having. You should add the K3 Winner 79x48 to your list, IMHO. I sold a lot of those and owners overwhelmingly satisfied. Good luck in your search.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  8. #8
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    Well, today I just put a deposit down for a K700P order. Went with a 6.6 (2050mm) sliding table. I won't see the saw until about February 2023, but that's fine because I have a whole lot to do in evolving my shop to prepare (clearing out junk tools, cyclone dust collector install, etc.). We had discussed the idea of a K500S which had a longer base to support a longer 9 foot slider option. I would have to open the garage door to do a full 9 foot slide (not a major deal). However, in the end I decided on the K700P for several reasons:

    - True trunnion (accuracy with tilted blade).
    - Separate motor for scoring blade
    - Better outrigger table and fence/stops.
    - Better rip fence / rail system
    - A bit heavier built (about 250 lbs heavier overall)
    - On/off buttons on end of sliding table (really helps in efficient workflow). This was not so much an issue on the cabinet saw, but will be an improvement in working speed with long sliders.

    In the next 10-15 years, I -might- have to do a dozen or so 8 foot cuts. About 97% of my future work would fit well within a 6.6 foot slider. My sales rep' suggestion was to use a track saw for this (which will work). If I was doing a large amount of long 8 foot straight cuts (90 degree blade), then the K500S would be a good choice. However, in the end, I decided to get a better overall saw rather than a "step-down" saw that would specifically support less than 3% of my work.

    I've grown to be somewhat picky on tool quality in my life. I have had a Delta Unisaw before, which was fine when I owned it. However, my Powermatic just feels more solid overall when working with it. I like the Powermatic much better and I expect the Sawstop ICS would have been very similar. I expect the same result on the K700P, which is why I kind of decided against the K500P. I have seen many videos on the Hammer K3 and while it is a great saw for many folks, I think it would fall short of what I am looking for.
    Last edited by Aaron Inami; 07-06-2022 at 5:02 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Inami View Post
    Well, today I just put a deposit down for a K700P order. Went with a 6.6 (2050mm) sliding table. I won't see the saw until about February 2023, but that's fine because I have a whole lot to do in evolving my shop to prepare (clearing out junk tools, cyclone dust collector install, etc.). We had discussed the idea of a K500S which had a longer base to support a longer 9 foot slider option. I would have to open the garage door to do a full 9 foot slide (not a major deal). However, in the end I decided on the K700P for several reasons:

    - True trunnion (accuracy with tilted blade).
    - Separate motor for scoring blade
    - Better outrigger table and fence/stops.
    - Better rip fence / rail system
    - A bit heavier built (about 250 lbs heavier overall)
    - On/off buttons on end of sliding table (really helps in efficient workflow). This was not so much an issue on the cabinet saw, but will be an improvement in working speed with long sliders.

    In the next 10-15 years, I -might- have to do a dozen or so 8 foot cuts. About 97% of my future work would fit well within a 6.6 foot slider. My sales rep' suggestion was to use a track saw for this (which will work). If I was doing a large amount of long 8 foot straight cuts (90 degree blade), then the K500S would be a good choice. However, in the end, I decided to get a better overall saw rather than a "step-down" saw that would specifically support less than 3% of my work.

    I've grown to be somewhat picky on tool quality in my life. I have had a Delta Unisaw before, which was fine when I owned it. However, my Powermatic just feels more solid overall when working with it. I like the Powermatic much better and I expect the Sawstop ICS would have been very similar. I expect the same result on the K700P, which is why I kind of decided against the K500P. I have seen many videos on the Hammer K3 and while it is a great saw for many folks, I think it would fall short of what I am looking for.
    How much work do you do with sheet goods? Personally, I'd go with a longer slider. While I rarely work with sheet goods, when I do I wish I had the extra slider capacity on my CF741. And you may decide to add a set of Airtight clamps (super highly recommended), in which case you will regret not having a bit more slider length.

    Just my 2 cents. Also, I'd highly recommend that you join the Felder Owners Group on Groups.io -- the members there have a huge amount of experience with felder equipment and can give you the best advice on configuration before you make choices you may later regret.

    Mike

  10. #10
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    I am on my second Felder combo with the 2020 slider. I tell myself I would have preferred a 3.0m slider to allow use of air clamps on a full sheet, but I never do that. In fact I would prefer to tracksaw the sheet first to give my back a break.

    The slider length you chose will allow you to rip most furniture sized wood on the slider too.

    I don’t have them, but many Felder owners really like digital x-cut stops and digital ripping guides from Lamb Toolworks.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Quenneville View Post
    I am on my second Felder combo with the 2020 slider. I tell myself I would have preferred a 3.0m slider to allow use of air clamps on a full sheet, but I never do that. In fact I would prefer to tracksaw the sheet first to give my back a break.

    The slider length you chose will allow you to rip most furniture sized wood on the slider too.

    I donít have them, but many Felder owners really like digital x-cut stops and digital ripping guides from Lamb Toolworks.

    DRO on xcut and Rip are life changing 😂. Itís fine without but once you have them there is no going back. I can screw up a part 3 weeks later and cut it to the exact dead nuts length without setup, sneaking up on it - not always necessary but nice to have. Also nothing like factory DRO over aftermarket, i have done it both ways and itís way better when its part off the design. The Felder DRO is pretty nice, first of all the fence is a lot nicer, heavier and is a little more versatile in the way it works over the analog one also the DRO is nicer to use than an aftermarket.

  12. #12
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    Yeah, I had thought about those rare moments when I need to straight cut an 8 foot sheet. I would have to step down on the slider model and I would rather have a nicer saw. I'm already significantly over what I had envisioned to spend (original target was around $8.5k for Sawstop ICS fully loaded). If I don't do a track saw, I can always rip cut an 8 foot sheet using the slider as an additional support. Almost 95% or more of the time, I am going to crosscut material down to under 6 feet anyways, so the nicer saw will be more enjoyable to use.

    The DRO's are nice, but those are going to be way down in the future (if at all). There are so many other things higher up on the priority list (such as jointer/planer, dust collection ducting, etc.). Keep in mind that I'm coming from a traditional cabinet saw, so a 6.6 foot slider is going to be a HUGE upgrade.

  13. #13
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    Oh yes, its a huge upgrade indeed. Watch all the panel saw videos, maybe think about blades. People on the Felder owners forum in the USA speak highly of Tenryu. Over here Leuco is more common.

    Did you get dado capability or is that standard now? Or do you care?

  14. #14
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    Yes, I specifically made sure to add "preparation for Dado support", but my sales rep says he pretty much does that for all his saw orders anyways. This could vary depending on which sales rep you work with.

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