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Thread: Hammer A3-41 vs Minimax FS41 Dust Collection

  1. #16
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    I don't disagree, Chris. Folks who opt for the "mass market" machines are very much at risk relative to true performance and it's difficult, if not impossible to get fan curves for them. But in general, I do stand by my statement with the modification that the DC needs to be "well performing" and generate the real CFM necessary to evacuate the chips from the wider machine via the integral 120mm port. My first cyclone was not capable of that and I had to upgrade after I bought my J/P back in the mid-2000s. So I do understand this from experience.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  2. #17
    Chris, like Jim, I’m sure you’re correct but that being said, I believe the question the OP is really asking is, “What do I need to just get the job done?”. At least that is the concern I heard from pretty much every J/P owner. And I stand by my statement that your average 3hp cyclone with 5-inch hose (with as little flex run as possible) will do the job just fine. For example, I used to do the trade show circuit with a 12” J/P and bandsaw. We would buy some super-cheapo single-bagger at the beginning of ever show season and just throw it a dumpster by the end of the season, because it was literally falling apart by then. But, it didn’t do a bad job of dust collection in the meantime. Point being, “sure”, you could engineer a DC system to the n-th degree for a home hobby shop that only operates one piece of machinery at a time but I don’t think that’s the same need as, like you mentioned earlier, a large shop that is running multiple machines at the same time. In that case, I agree with you 100%. Hope I am explaining myself OK.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Loza View Post
    Chris, like Jim, I’m sure you’re correct but that being said, I believe the question the OP is really asking is, “What do I need to just get the job done?”. At least that is the concern I heard from pretty much every J/P owner. And I stand by my statement that your average 3hp cyclone with 5-inch hose (with as little flex run as possible) will do the job just fine. For example, I used to do the trade show circuit with a 12” J/P and bandsaw. We would buy some super-cheapo single-bagger at the beginning of ever show season and just throw it a dumpster by the end of the season, because it was literally falling apart by then. But, it didn’t do a bad job of dust collection in the meantime. Point being, “sure”, you could engineer a DC system to the n-th degree for a home hobby shop that only operates one piece of machinery at a time but I don’t think that’s the same need as, like you mentioned earlier, a large shop that is running multiple machines at the same time. In that case, I agree with you 100%. Hope I am explaining myself OK.

    Erik
    No one least me is engineering anything and jn fact it amazes me when people start trying to do just that with dust extraction. Simply put HP means nothing and it is about time we started to specify dust extractors by impeller size. I am not going to get into debates on DE, use what you want but be aware of what makes a DE perform and what you should be looking for instead of wasting money as Jim did. Knowledge will always allow us to make informed decisions and just because we always did it that way does not mean it is the best way.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  4. #19
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    Chris, if the "wasting money" thing references the need to upgrade, it's not exactly accurate to the situation I was faced with. My original Oneida 1.5hp cyclone was bought in the year 2000 before I even knew tools like J/Ps existed. I had a typical Jet 6" jointer and some brand of 12" portable planer at that point. Nobody was really discussing DC performance much, either. The J/P came along in about 2004. The shop also expanded to double the size and with other bigger tools. It was just a natural progression. That first cyclone is actually still in operation in a friend's shop...he's a 'Creeker, but rarely posts. The second one worked well...it was the original Gorilla before they turned yellow and it was a 2 hp with about double the actual airflow of the first one. If I had had a place to store it, I'd have it lined up for the new shop building, but I didn't, so it's now in a small commercial shop not far from here, also populated by another 'Creeker. I don't feel that I ever wasted any money "back then". Now over the years, I've learned a whole bunch more about the subject and again, I agree with you that "size matters", especially with more and more folks adopting tools that are more demanding to collect from. It's coincident that most often, impeller size provides a good indication of expected performance, but I personally would still be delighted to consult a fan curve because there are some technology things that are coming more into play around increased performance and also what I'll call "adaptable" performance because of how shops are changing to embrace things like CNC and other tech tools where you can't really depend solely on CFM.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  5. #20
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    Okay, so after 2-1/2 months, I finally have my answer to the first question in this thread. We know that the Minimax planer/jointers have separate dust collection hoods for the planer and the jointer function.

    It is very interesting that I have found nothing on the Felder/Hammer equipment. Absolutely nobody talks in detail about how this "single hood" dust collector actually functions. The only thing they say and show is "just pull the hood up and over the top to do the planer dust collection". The pictures and videos don't show good detail and it actually looks like the dust hood is two sections and completely open (i.e. non-effective).

    I was in a Felder showroom a couple days ago to pick up a different machine and was able to examine this dust hood closely. In actuality, the Felder/Hammer dust hood has a flap/baffle plate that moves. When in the down position, this flap completely closes the hood section for the planer and opens the hood section for the jointer. When you pull the hood up and over, the flap moves to close off the jointer hood input area and opens the planer hood section. Each section (jointer hood opening or planer hood opening) fits down onto the cutter wheel pretty closely. It's not 100% perfect because the flap does have some gaps on the edges where it moves inside the hood. The higher level Felder AD741/AD941 machines have dust hoods designed in exactly the same way.

    As a comparison. I would say the Hammer/Felder "planer" dust hood is probably about 98% as effective as the Minimax dust hoods (because of the gaps along the edge of the baffle flap). When looking at the "jointer" dust hood, it may be possible that the Felder design is better because the hood is underneath the cutter head and pulls the dust that falls down from the cutter naturally due to gravity. The Minimax "jointer" hood is mounted right in front of the cutter head and could leave some dust to fall down below (depending on how good the dust collector is). The Minimax "jointer" dust hood has a smaller slit as well. Any dust that is not captured by the "jointer" dust hood falls down onto the planer dust hood (which is in the upside down position). I could see this dust falling onto the planer bed when you pull the dust hood up and over.

    For me, it's good to know the exact details/differences.
    Last edited by Aaron Inami; 09-04-2022 at 2:03 AM.

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Inami View Post
    We know that the Minimax planer/jointers have separate dust collection hoods for the planer and the jointer function.
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the hood configuration is the same on most of these dual j/p units. I have a FS41ES and it is a single hood, not a dual hood. The hood just adjusts based on the function. I looked at the Hammer/Felder options as well and they were the same/similar operation.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by derek labian View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the hood configuration is the same on most of these dual j/p units. I have a FS41ES and it is a single hood, not a dual hood. The hood just adjusts based on the function. I looked at the Hammer/Felder options as well and they were the same/similar operation.
    My FS350 has a flip up hood for thicknessing, but the infeed table for jointing has its own hood mounted below. I move the hose when changing functions...the location is the same but it's a separate port for each.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  8. #23
    Well I own a 2004 vintage MM FS41E, I know things have changed with the FS41E with the newer models, but my hood configuration is exactly as Jim described. I have a Oneida 2000 Pro 5 hp cyclone, about 95% of the chips wind up in the collector.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    My FS350 has a flip up hood for thicknessing, but the infeed table for jointing has its own hood mounted below. I move the hose when changing functions...the location is the same but it's a separate port for each.
    Interesting. Looking more closely at the SCM site, it looks like the FS41E/ES share a single port, and the FS41C has two ports. The op didnt specify but must me talking about the FS41C?

  10. #25
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    The Classic may very well retain the design that's been used for a long time. I've only seen one newer one up close at a friend's shop, but I never looked at the dust arrangement since it was only being used to flatten a 400mm+ wide chunk of wood prior to resawing.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  11. #26
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    I took a quick look. Yes, the FS41ES has a single dust hood with an "adapter hood" that pulls over for planer mode. However, all the lower models (FS41E, FS41C, FS30C) have two separate dust hoods.

    The switchover for FS41E shows two separate dust hoods in this location of this video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-wBArkXOsU&t=326s

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    Driving what size impeller? My whole point is a specified HP figure means zip, nothing, nada, it is the impeller size which defines how much air gets moved as long as the motor is reaching full speed. The whole WW community has been mislead and ripped off by the retail industry who quote HP as the significant sales point. I bet a lot of people would be surprised if they opened up different HP dust extractors and found the impeller is the same in different HP machines.
    Yes, motor power isn’t very important, however fan performance is far more important than fan diameter.

    My 1.5HP Oneida has a tapered, curved blade impeller and provides enough airflow for my A3 and B3.

    Some cyclones use a straight blade impeller that seems made for chip handling, I have no idea why that impeller would be selected for a cyclone.

    Regards, Rod

  13. #28
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    FWIW, It is a challenge to mount a 5HP motor at ~9' above ground level for a large cyclone, particularly in a corner. Two strong men, two ladders, an awkward and really heavy lift that can be somewhat dangerous...

    On the flip side, I do get about 99% chip collection using 8" and 6" pipe plus the last yard with flex hose on a MinMax CU300. Never had a clog on the J/P side. Tersa knives. Occasionally have to clean out thin rip leftovers on the saw side.
    Mark McFarlane

  14. #29
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    A3-41 here with a 1.5 Hp Oneida mini gorilla dust collector connected by 5” flex hose. No issues with dust collection, works great. My only complaint is the relatively small drum in the mini gorilla but that’s just how it is.

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