Garage cost...are you kidding me?

[Robert Hartmann]

I retired from the Air Force close to two years ago. It took us until now to find the house we wanted. So, I was ready to finally have a space dedicated for a wood shop instead of cramming into here or there as we moved every three years. We have a great house with some land and a perfect spot for a detached garage. I received the first estimate and about died. I was hoping to have a fully complete ~32x24 garage built. It came in at $110k which didn't include any heating or cooling. I asked for a scaled-down 2-car size with an option for no electric (other than run a 100 amp box), insulation, drywall and only french doors. It still came in at over $80k. I have another contractor working on an estimate at this time.

I had also requested the drive be extended (about 10x40 of concrete) in front of the garage.

Is this the going rate for those that know? If so, looks like I'll be stuck in the attached garage for a while.

[Jim Becker]

Robert, yes, the cost of structures is a lot higher than it was a few years ago because of material and labor costs being elevated. For this reason, I'll suggest that you seriously consider alternative building types for your project. That's exactly why I'm doing post frame for my 24x36x10 shop building that is scheduled to "go up" the second week of September. I totally ruled out "stick built" right from the start because of costs and it came down to metal post frame ("car port") or wood post frame (what is often called pole barn) for my project. In the end, the cost was similar because the metal structure required a monolithic slab vs the floating slab for the post frame. The end look is identical and in my case, is exactly color matched to our home. My building with concrete and basic electric will be under $35K and I do expect to put maybe $10K more in for internal finishes and the mini-split for HVAC.

[Scott Clausen]

If you don't need to borrow the money it may get better as interest rates rise. Maybe by then materials will normalize. I would wire and install interior myself but when I run the numbers in my head I keep coming up with 80k ~ 100K and I am not sure the resale of the property can support that investment. Till something gives I work out of a 10'X16' shed with AC and heat and switched to mostly hand tools. Its working so far.

[Mark Gibney]

Jim (and anyone else) can you tell me why post and beam is cheaper than stick framing?
In the next few years I might want to build a 4-car garage workshop, so information like this is important to understand.

[Jim Becker]

Jim (and anyone else) can you tell me why post and beam is cheaper than stick framing?
In the next few years I might want to build a 4-car garage workshop, so information like this is important to understand.

Post frame (which is different than post and beam) and often also called a "pole barn", goes up very quickly which brings substantially less labor to the party. It's also a less complicated structure as the posts carry all the weight...stick framed, you're dealing with headers and more involved load transfer. This is for the basic structure, of course. How you finish it out will affect the cost. Typical metal cladding installed vertically is less labor intensive and less costly than sheathing and some form of siding. Stick frame nearly always has to be sheathed for structural reasons. That's not necessary with post-frame. But many folks do clad a post frame building with sheathing and normal siding when that's what's required for appearances. It adds cost, but may still be less expensive than a typical stick frame building. One other aspect comes into play here, too...wall height. Stick framing taller walls gets to be "fun". Post frame, for the most part, doesn't care. Bigger and taller buildings are just engineered to use heaver laminated posts and the doubled connections across the posts along the sides that support the trusses are just beefed up further based on normal and local engineering requirements. A small building like mine uses three ply laminated posts that are nominally 6" in cross section. IT literally will be built from the ground up in less than two days for the 24x36x10 size I opted for. The only way to get close to that with stick framing is panelized pre-construction and I did get quotes for that, too. It was 30-50% more.

Post and beam...now you're talking timber frame and oh, would I really love to be able to do that! Timber frame with SIPs would be nirvana. (ching...ching....)

[Mark Gibney]

Jim, Steve, thanks for the primer on this.
Jim, feel free to have a build thread going if you don't already!

[Jim Becker]

Jim, feel free to have a build thread going if you don't already!

I do have a thread...it's just going to be quiet for awhile because of scheduling. The actual build is currently pegged for mid-September with "drilling" tentatively on 8 September and then the approximate two days of build for the 12th. I'll have the electrician in as immediately as possible as well as the concrete folks to do their prep. I'll be putting down the insulation for the floor and then the concrete folks will be back to "do the deed" which I'm pleasantly surprised will include coating on the floor which saves me time and money. The thread is quiet at present simply because nothing is happening for now.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Jim (and anyone else) can you tell me why post and beam is cheaper than stick framing?
In the next few years I might want to build a 4-car garage workshop, so information like this is important to understand.

Adding to what Jim said, pole sheds are cheaper because of the foundation. Pole sheds allow use of wood posts below grade to replace the typical perimeter foundation or slab. There will eventually be more issues with the wood posts below grade than a concrete foundation, so pole buildings are a compromise of lifespan vs cost. That's just fine in lots of scenarios like ag barns and utility shops, but it is also why they are not allowed in many places.

The cost advantage of a pole shed dwindles when you start pouring floors. Also you have to deal with that bottom girt or bang board being in contact with the soil, and it being your support for the bottom of the steel. When pouring a concrete floor inside that board, you use it as a form, but it's then got a whole different dynamic with moisture and bug vulnerability. Pay close attention to details in that area. Water management and pest control will keep a pole shed going a lot longer.

[Jim Becker]

Even the potential lifetime issues with the posts is less concern now than in the past. The laminated posts being used for my building have a "lifetime" warranty. Who's lifetime...I don't know, but I'm sure not going to worry about it. But there are also accomodations for a slight uplift in initial cost that totally mitigate the risk of rot, etc...Perma Column which has a very strong concrete addition to the bottom of the laminated post and makes for zero ground contact and poured piers with heavy steel mounting brackets for structures that need to carry more weight are common at this point. There are also various types of dips/wraps that are intermediate between bare post and concrete, too.

On the grade board, they are PT for ground contact and it's now common to tape/coat the bottom. That, combined with stone that drains really helps prolong life. But yes, proper grading, as with any kind of building is absolutely essential. When you do see rot on grade boards, it's most likely going to be because of inattention to ground water and/or other water leaks from above.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

On the grade board, they are PT for ground contact and it's now common to tape/coat the bottom. That, combined with stone that drains really helps prolong life. But yes, proper grading, as with any kind of building is absolutely essential. When you do see rot on grade boards, it's most likely going to be because of inattention to ground water and/or other water leaks from above.

Very true, 9/10 that we replace aren't even pressure treated. People will skimp on the dumbest things.

[John K Jordan]

....
On the grade board, they are PT for ground contact and it's now common to tape/coat the bottom. That, combined with stone that drains really helps prolong life. But yes, proper grading, as with any kind of building is absolutely essential. When you do see rot on grade boards, it's most likely going to be because of inattention to ground water and/or other water leaks from above.

I wonder if the quality of pressure treating has decreased, at least for what is sold at the box store. I had a low 10x10 deck for the dogs not in contact with the ground - PT deck boards rotted in places enough to stick my foot through. Rebuild - the same thing happened after about 8 years. Rebuilt it from scratch with Trex.

I also had a small deck on a slope 3-4' above the (well drained) ground. Not only did the PT deck boards rot through after about 10 years but the beams and joists did too in places. The only thing that didn't rot was the posts in the ground. I replaced the entire thing, decking with trex this time.

JKJ

[Jim Becker]

I wonder if the quality of pressure treating has decreased, at least for what is sold at the box store.

I believe that is true to a certain extent in the retail outlets...one has to be really careful about the description/specifications for the particular product they are buying for sure. There are multiple grades of pressure treatment...it's not all the same and that's not necessarily evident on retail shelf price stickers. Post Frame builders tend to buy their laminated poles from specialty manufacturers and one would hope that the preservation process being used on the in-ground portion of the post is up to the task, particularly with the so-called "lifetime" warranty many builders offer on them, including my builder. I would also imagine, but can't say for sure, that many of these same builders are buying their PT sticks in bunks, maybe directly from the treatment folks. Hopefully, that would mean the correct product for ground contact elements, such as grade boards. Hard to say, however...different firms take different attitudes about material purchasing. Some embrace the best they can get for the long term benefits it brings and others buy "best price" to maximize profit at all costs. It's no different than any other kind of business.

[Adam Herman]

I believe that is true to a certain extent in the retail outlets...one has to be really careful about the description/specifications for the particular product they are buying for sure. There are multiple grades of pressure treatment...it's not all the same and that's not necessarily evident on retail shelf price stickers. Post Frame builders tend to buy their laminated poles from specialty manufacturers and one would hope that the preservation process being used on the in-ground portion of the post is up to the task, particularly with the so-called "lifetime" warranty many builders offer on them, including my builder. I would also imagine, but can't say for sure, that many of these same builders are buying their PT sticks in bunks, maybe directly from the treatment folks. Hopefully, that would mean the correct product for ground contact elements, such as grade boards. Hard to say, however...different firms take different attitudes about material purchasing. Some embrace the best they can get for the long term benefits it brings and others buy "best price" to maximize profit at all costs. It's no different than any other kind of business.

ask what spec they are using. my building came with all SYP structural grade lumber I don't recall the % for the treatment though.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, post frame builders have to use certain grades of lumber for certain purposes which isn't unlike with stick framing. Those beefy horizontal boards at the top that support the trusses are a good example. SYP at a specific grade is indicated there...the nomenclature starts with an "M" but I forget the rest of the acronym. Treated is typically only for the posts and grade boards since they have ground contact. For girts and purlins, things are generally untreated and the requirements are sometimes a little less strict because they are not supporting the building, per se, outside of keeping things square and providing a place to hang the exterior finishes, such as the typical vertical metal panels or sheathing if regular siding and/or roofing is chosen. But it's still good lumber that gets used. Bigger buildings get beefier girts and purlins, however, as that makes for a stiffer structure when the wind howls.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I wonder if the quality of pressure treating has decreased, at least for what is sold at the box store.
JKJ

About 20 years ago CCA pressure treating started being replaced by ACQ. Chromated copper arsenate vs alkaline copper quaternary. Probably a scary chemical in the old CCA stuff that had been in use since the 30's. The new ACQ stuff is more corrosive to fasteners and isn't as good in ground contact. Menards still carries some CCA for use in ground contact situations, specifically in pole sheds. I don't think any CCA is still made in the states so maybe they are using old stock.