Jointer grease suggestions (20" Kölle)

[Greg Quenneville]

Chris, I have a Euro tool fetish, and I have been helped immensely by guys from the various machinists and woodworking forums over the years, so I'm happy I could help someone else in return.

Greg

[Chris Pyle]

Chris, I have a Euro tool fetish, and I have been helped immensely by guys from the various machinists and woodworking forums over the years, so I'm happy I could help someone else in return.

Greg

I also have an interest in high quality tools. Here's a pic of the machines nestled together. Kölle jointer, planer and I believe a Kölle bandsaw but there are different names imprinted on the guides.

Attachment 480646

[Bill Dufour]

The grease recommendations are twenty years old. I doubt if synthetic grease was common back then. I like the idea of synthetic grease and oil for machines that do not get lubed every year. In theory synthetic grease does not dry out and get gummy like petroleum grease and oil.
Pure Silicone oil does not dry out(Zero vapor pressure) nor oxidize at normal operating temperatures. Most of us here only relube a bearing after it is too late to save it.
Bill D

[Greg Quenneville]

I also have an interest in high quality tools. Here's a pic of the machines nestled together. Kölle jointer, planer and I believe a Kölle bandsaw but there are different names imprinted on the guides.

Attachment 480646

Oddly, when scouring the internet for clues I can across Martin Ott's old website with your machines illustrated. They are very nice indeed. I would like to migrate from Felder to Martin or Kölle machines, but age and practicality limit my ambitions somewhat in that department.

My metal lathe is a Dutch AI Hembrug DR-1…kind of like a 7/8 scale Monarch 10EE. I had Deckel FP-1 an FP-2 companion machines, but sold them in a fit of stupidity. I expect to replace the FP-2

I recently bought a local Maka mortiser for a far-off friend which has me again itchy to improve my shop. The siren song of German machinery is distracting still. This after a life's hobby journey that started a couple of notches below Craftsman stuff. (And I still have all the Sears stuff I bought when I lived in North America)

BTW, your bandsaw sure looks like a Kölle BG63. Those Euro guides were all made by one or two suppliers, and every Italian bandsaw I have owned or seen had them. I think they all had GL in their part numbers. Some had “Jolly” on the left guide.


Best,
Greg

[Bill Dufour]

Nice lathe!
Bill D.

http://www.lathes.co.uk/hembrug/

[Brian Holcombe]

It’s worth adding Japanese industrial machines as well. The Marunaka super surfacer just impresses the heck out of me, every part is nicely made and made of cast iron or aluminum. Nothing flexes, nothing vibrates, nothing groans.

Im very happy with my couple of German machines, they are very well built. The cast iron parts are hefty, the machines run very smoothly and they just run without complaint and do precise work every time.

[Chris Pyle]

Oddly, when scouring the internet for clues I can across Martin Ott's old website with your machines illustrated. They are very nice indeed. I would like to migrate from Felder to Martin or Kölle machines, but age and practicality limit my ambitions somewhat in that department.

My metal lathe is a Dutch AI Hembrug DR-1…kind of like a 7/8 scale Monarch 10EE. I had Deckel FP-1 an FP-2 companion machines, but sold them in a fit of stupidity. I expect to replace the FP-2

I recently bought a local Maka mortiser for a far-off friend which has me again itchy to improve my shop. The siren song of German machinery is distracting still. This after a life's hobby journey that started a couple of notches below Craftsman stuff. (And I still have all the Sears stuff I bought when I lived in North America)

BTW, your bandsaw sure looks like a Kölle BG63. Those Euro guides were all made by one or two suppliers, and every Italian bandsaw I have owned or seen had them. I think they all had GL in their part numbers. Some had “Jolly” on the left guide.


Best,
Greg

That is some incredibly high quality machines you've been able to use. That lathe sounds fantastic and the Deckel is obviously in another class. I've never seen a Deckel in real life, I've wanted to own one but the prices continue to ascend too far outside my budget right now.

Thanks for the confirming photo/identification, I thought that was the correct model then the guides were stamped differently, I'll grab a pick today and post back on here.

It’s worth adding Japanese industrial machines as well. The Marunaka super surfacer just impresses the heck out of me, every part is nicely made and made of cast iron or aluminum. Nothing flexes, nothing vibrates, nothing groans.

Im very happy with my couple of German machines, they are very well built. The cast iron parts are hefty, the machines run very smoothly and they just run without complaint and do precise work every time.

Absolutely Brian. I still search some of the Japanese dealer/auction sites because I want to purchase a couple of their machines. Their sliding saws are fantastic and I only knew of them because of Chris Hall. The super surfacer is on my short list. Every time one has come up for sale I've missed out. I've enjoyed seeing yours on insta, looks like an incredible time saver.

The German machines I have are rock solid but I haven't put them through much.

The Canadian machine I have (general mortiser) is well-built. I still need to go through it as thoroughly as you did on your Wadkin. I don't have the capacity to re-machine but we'll see what a few tests unearth.

I have no Japanese industrial machinery so can't compare (outside of the Hitachi CB75f) which was mass imported and is fairly common.

[Greg Quenneville]

I too should have mentioned Japanese machines. The friend who now has the Maka SM-7 also has a super surfacer rebuild project. It was about 36 hours into a long day when I saw it, but you could sense that it had enough cast iron to produce its own gravitational field. I am not easily impressed, but I was with that thing.

The Japanese also made some seriously good machine tools, but most of them were a few tons too heavy for the home shop without an overhead crane or riggers who owed you big-time.

On another note for Chris:

Since the Germans specifically, and Europeans in general, educate tradesmen in all facets of their trade, it might be that a user manual per se was never written for your machines. Typically shop users would have passed a long career course which would have covered machine adjustment and care and been shown unique features when the machines were delivered.

I know you don’t need operating tips, but even routine lubrication chores may have been left to quick briefings when the machines were new in Europe. I suspect the best you can hope for might be a parts manual, most of which would obviously be moot, but you might discover bearing numbers that way without a tear-down.

Regarding bearings, I expect that Kölle specified a basic off the shelf shielded-one-side bearing since the application does not warrant a super precision bearing. A standard bearing is plenty accurate enough, and a super precision bearing wouldn’t be quite so super after a few hours of interrupted cuts (jointer, planer) hammered the *&$#@ out of them. Also the cost of designing in custom bearings for a short production run would have been really prohibitive. You may have double row bearings, but they should be a commodity item obtained 2022* quickly if and when you ever need them.

Also, I am +1 on getting sealed bearings. Serviceable lubrication bearings are for production machines in big shops with millwrights.

*2022. The world is broken. I have just waited 6.5 months for drawer slides. The car I bought in March is arriving in…March, 2023. Maybe bearings are also on the list of things we don’t make here** anymore?

**= Earth.

Greg

[Chris Pyle]

Thanks for all of that Greg. Somewhat surprisingly I received a reply from Riston, they will send me PDFs of both machines but there is no exploded parts diagrams, which is a huge bummer.

Here's the info on the manuals:

Operating manual for KÖLLE AH 50,
incl. self cost share, copyright protection,
additional costs
Notice:
The operating manual is only available
in German language.
The operating manual includes necessary
information for commissioning and maintenance
as well some drawings for explanation and a
wiring diagram.
Detailed part lists or explosion drawings are
not included.

Each manual in PDF format is 45 euro. That seems awfully high but I don't think i can say no because I love having the manuals/paperwork for my machines.


He also offered input on the type of grease to use:

For lubricating ball bearings, there is no special grease specified in the manuals. It is only pointed out that "lithium-saponified" grease should be used. We recommend obtaining a special grease for lubricating ball bearings from the relevant trade.

For example „Klüberspeed BF 72-23“ or „EMKA Lagerstar TOP 3000“ can be used.

I'm very grateful for the reply from them. I have to believe some knowledge will be gained by having the manuals, even without the parts diagram.

[Tom M King]

We do not see corn head grease here but cotton picking grease is the same kind of stuff.
Bill D

corn head grease is grade 0 cotton picker grease is 00 Both will do the same thing, but 00 will become liquid sooner, and leak out of seals quicker. The only place I know to get Corn Head grease is through John Deere. You can order it online for several times the price as you can walk in a John Deere dealer and get it for, but probably only worth the difference if a dealer is close by. Tractor Supply sells cotton picker grease. I've never seen Corn Head grease leak through a seal, and have seen people cut stuff open online, and show that CH grease is still on races when regular red grease, or regular litium grease has left bearing races.

A more commonly heard name for "lithium-saponified" grease is "complex lithium", or "lithium complex".

[Chris Pyle]

Here are the guides on the bandsaw, they are beefy:

PXL_20220611_115143230.jpg

PXL_20220611_115155987.jpg

Lower guide markings, hard to make out

PXL_20220612_180821944.jpg

PXL_20220612_180849144.jpg

Castings behind upper guides:

PXL_20220612_180905913.MP.jpg


Back to the grease. I have an order I need to place with McMaster-Carr and they have this Lithium-thickener grease for high speed bearings:

Lubriplate Syn GR-132

Any one disagree with this grease? Seems like a solid, no-frills grease to use on these bearings, no?

[Greg Quenneville]

Hi Chris…

First, congratulations on getting the manuals from Riston. Bummer about the lack of exploded diagrams. I too want as much documentation as I can get on machines since I was elsewhere on campus during all the machine use and maintenance lectures. ��

Lubriplate grease was probably the first grease I ever got under my fingernails 60+ years ago. Good thing it was white. I think the label was black and silver. I cannot comment about the suitability for your application since, as has already been mentioned, the soap from some greases don’t mix with each other, and we don’t know what was used previously.

Bandsaw guide photos are interesting, but so is the mounting casting which says “Panhans”. A quick Google shows no Panhans saws like that, but maybe they made them for Kölle? Or sold them under their own label? I am curious to see the crest on the upper door of your saw.

Anyway…very nice machines from the “set-and-forget” era of machine construction. You will likely go decades between repairs, if ever. And decades between tune-ups.

Greg

[Joe Calhoon]

Greg,
Panhans sells the APA guides in their safety catalog. I don’t know if they are the mfg. in the later years of the old Panhans they rebaged Aggazani band saws and put the APA guides on them. The new Beck Panhans company bought Aggazani when they went out. I don’t know if the bandsaws are still manufactured in Italy or if they moved to Becks factory.
the APA guides are nicer than the standard Euro bandsaw guides. My Hema bandsaw has those on it. Night and day difference from the euro guides on my Aggazani.
8C4BD2E0-7FAA-41A0-AB28-670919A70681.jpg
DD6F1EE6-3938-4BA3-A0D9-4E8A6CAD924F.jpg

[Greg Quenneville]

Thanks Joe.

I have an old Aggazani saw that needed new guides when I bought it. I was a bit underwhelmed by the Euro guides on my old Meber so I opted for ceramics instead. I will investigate APA guides as an upgrade.

Greg

[Brian Holcombe]

Personally I would be tempted to take them out, flush and repack them. The grease is probably 20-30 years old, so it can’t hurt.

The best thing about old heavy machines is that when you set them up, they retain the setting forever.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Japanese sliding saw in the US but given a bigger space I would love to import one but with saws like short stroke Martin or Wadkin it’s difficult to want to take on the expense and risk.