Cost effectiveness of a slider vs. tracksaw & tablesaw

[Steve Jenkins]

Of long ago using a slider I broke down 23 sheets of ply in about an hour and a half. It was for a wall of lockers with drawers below. Did not include the drawers. I’m 73.

[John TenEyck]

Jeff, what bits are you using in your CNC that give you cuts equal to a sawblade? Nothing I use in my CNC (straight router bits nor spiral end mills) comes close to the smoothness I get from a blade in my TS, and that requires sanding where the TS does not. I'd really like to know what CNC bits will give me TS quality finish. Thanks.

John

[Jim Becker]

CNC, yes, that's a good point. It would do wonders, but seems niche to cabinet making and templating.

The majority of cabinet work has moved to CNC in the industry at this point...it's not really niche like it was a decade ago for smaller shops. It's a lot more affordable these days to the smaller professional shop, too, and that's with actual industrial quality machines, not lighter kit type setups.

[Jim Becker]

Jeff, what bits are you using in your CNC that give you cuts equal to a sawblade? Nothing I use in my CNC (straight router bits nor spiral end mills) comes close to the smoothness I get from a blade in my TS, and that requires sanding where the TS does not. I'd really like to know what CNC bits will give me TS quality finish. Thanks.

John

John, it's not necessarily the bits, although typical sheet goods cutouts are done full depth with compression tooling in production shops, often .375" diameter tooling for .75" material. A lot of the edge quality challenges that come with smaller machines is from deflection of the machine itself.

[Chris Parks]

Health issues are important as anyone older will tell you and the one health issue often forgotten in production work in the long term is dust control. Fixed machines will enable far better dust control than a glorified hand saw of any description and for anyone in the production business good dust control is essential of you intend to do it long term. Is your health a primary consideration to you, countless people have been forced to give up their job due to dust issues and a lot of them have had their life shortened because of it.

[Jonathan Jung]

The majority of cabinet work has moved to CNC in the industry at this point...it's not really niche like it was a decade ago for smaller shops. It's a lot more affordable these days to the smaller professional shop, too, and that's with actual industrial quality machines, not lighter kit type setups.

I guess what I meant was that a 3-axis CNC is only going to cut flat shapes, and not be good at folding miter joints, straightlining lumber, jointery, etc. Maybe I'm wrong on this and they are more capable than what I've seen them do.

[David Zaret]

i have both a CNC, and a slider. 99% of my plywood cabinet carcass components are done on the CNC, and with good 3/8" compression cutters, and good plywood, i get edges that are so clean i can cut myself on the edge. the slider does a nice job as well, the cut quality is comparable. unfortunately, the plywood i've used lately has been terrible.

i feel that the variables in your decision involve 1) the shop space you have, and 2) your budget. your track saw can't hold a candle to a slider for efficiency, speed, and accuracy.. but, sliders big enough to cut full sheets take up a huge amount of floor space, and are expensive. CNCs good enough to make multiple kitchens a year are expensive. what are you able to do? if you have a huge shop, and a deep budget, get a slider to replace your track saw. if you can't afford a slider (in space or budget), then work up to it... but if you goal is to cut carcass components, consider a CNC first.

[Jim Becker]

I guess what I meant was that a 3-axis CNC is only going to cut flat shapes, and not be good at folding miter joints, straightlining lumber, jointery, etc.

That's correct. A three axis machine "can" do lots of joinery cutting, but it's not necessarily the most efficient way to use the machine because of the jigs and setup required.

BTW, straight-lining is one of my favorite things about the slider. My typical workflow is to flatten and thickness first (I rough cut components to size first...I hate putting really long boards through the milling process unless they have to stay long in the actual project) and then straight-line on the slider. Ripping to width is either on the wagon using a parallel jig or Friz and Franz jig or old school using the fence if I must.

BTW, while I only have a 4x4 CNC, I still have opted to use it for some cabinet projects because it required less lifting. It's not as efficient as with a larger machine, but golly gee wiz those pieces are actually have shapes that are incredibly accurate!

[Dave Sabo]

Jeff, what bits are you using in your CNC that give you cuts equal to a sawblade? Nothing I use in my CNC (straight router bits nor spiral end mills) comes close to the smoothness I get from a blade in my TS, and that requires sanding where the TS does not. I'd really like to know what CNC bits will give me TS quality finish. Thanks.

John

You should give Vortex a call and discuss your needs if you're not getting results on par with a tablesaw with your current CNC tooling.

[Jeff Roltgen]

Jeff, what percentage of your builds are cabinetry? Do you find yourself using the slider where the CNC can't?

Lately, close to 90% cabinetry, but I've got a barstool design that sells through a local upholstery shop that moves a couple dozen units throughout the year in 3-6 qty batches. I couldn't sell them a single one if I was doing it all old-school, especially considering I've got to sneak them in between a full workload of larger projects.
I have not used for the slider for sheet goods, other than breaking down scraps/drops from the CNC. I will say, if I had to do a melamine job (almost never anymore), I have considered the slider could have an advantage for shelves, simply due to speed, though I've not tried it yet. Fact is, after initial setup, I removed the crosscut outrigger, and only put it on once to clean up some miters recently on a particularly funky mirror frame top. I have a smaller scaled miter fence that came with the SCM, so an 8' capacity outrigger is just in the way 99% of the time.

John, I know exactly what you mean about the difference between a well tuned saw with decent blade vs. edge quality of cut on the CNC. The saw does win out with a more laser-cut and polished look, but I almost never have a plywood edge that doesn't get at least edge-banded or a face frame attached, so it generally is no concern at all. I could see, if you're doing lots of exposed edges with something like Baltic birch and need absolute perfection for a modern piece of furniture that this could be a concern. However, even with my "tinker-toy" grade Shopbot, the ply edge results are absolutely beautiful, unless you get out a magnifying glass, you do not really notice the slight ripple that the bit produces. I have gravitated to 3/8 compression bits by either Whiteside or Onsrud, and am very, very satisfied with the results. As another here stated - you can cut yourself easily on the crisp edges it produces, especially on melamine.

CNC joinery: I used to use a wall-mounted Wood-Rat for mortises and tenons, but the Shopbot has about 8-10" over-travel at the far end, so I can now throw a jig on that end, clamp up and batch out beautiful, highly accurate tenons off the end. It really is a joy to watch that spindle spiral down the cheeks as it produces a tenon, accurate down to a couple thousandths.
Again, if I've got a curved back leg for a chair to cut on the CNC, I always squeeze in the mortises on the face that is up, just to knock out one more bit of joinery while it's running. I often punch domino mortises in this fashion. I know miter-folds can be done on a CNC, but you need some monster-bits that my 2.5HP spindle is just not built for. Here's where I'd turn around and head back to the slider...

jeff

[Bill Dufour]

I see used panel saws on C-list all the time for 500-1200. That seems like a decent price to consider compared to a dedicate track saw. How accurate are they?
Bill D

[Richard Coers]

If you want to see creative furniture done with a lot of CNC parts. http://pearcepearce.com/available-to-order

[Mike Wilkins]

I have watched several YouTube videos by an English woodworker named Peter Millard with the 10 minute workshop. He has completed several large case builds using only a track saw and router table and seems to have had good success. His workshop is not much larger than a large closet and he has adapted his working methods to turn out some fine work. If space is not an issue, a slider with a lift table to get the sheet goods onto the slider will let you get some accurate and repeatable cuts.
If you are expanding and getting more and more jobs, and have the space, a slider with the ability to rip 8-footers might be a good way to go.

[Jim Becker]

Mike, it's absolutely true that one can do the work with a track saw. But the OP is in a professional/production situation. I'll also be honest that when I first moved into my temporary shop here at the new place, I tried to make do with just the track saw with tracks and MFT but it was darn frustrating and awkward in the space I have available. I ended up compromising and picking up a used cabinet saw to use until I have my shop building and can get a slider back in play. Full disclosure: I'm not doing work for others at this point, unlike the OP.

[Patrick Kane]

First, whats your budget? Is your business stable enough that you are comfortable financing $25,000+? If your budget is only $5,000, then you can start to think about a used sliding table saw, and yes, it will crush a track saw/cabinet saw combo. Ive only flirted with small CNCs, and really, anything under $10,000 for a benchtop machine seems like garbage. Unfortunately for you, a 3x4 or 2x4 capacity is a almost useless for cabinet work, so now you are talking $18,000-25,000 for a 4x8 Stinger I, Shopbot PRSalpha Laguna Swift, etc. It seems like the guys that have 'been there, done that' are telling you the CNC upgrade is very much worth it. In the end, i think you will end up with both, its just which one do you get first?

I dont know what your current setup is, but 4-5 years ago i sold a kapex, MFT, maxed out jessem router table, and delta unisaw to buy a used Felder KF700. Seriously, those 4 tools got me to within about $800 to the used Felder, and the only one i went back to replace a year later is the router table.