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Thread: Electric permit question

  1. #1
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    Electric permit question

    I have a subpanel that was installed by a licensed electrician but without a permit. I need to get it permitted. The only circuits in the new subpanel are outlets in the garage/workshop. These circuits are neither GFCI nor AFCI protected. I received different answers from two electricians over which is required. Before I start the permit process I’d like to know which is correct. Phoenix uses the 2017 NEC.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Miltner View Post
    I have a subpanel that was installed by a licensed electrician but without a permit. I need to get it permitted. The only circuits in the new subpanel are outlets in the garage/workshop. These circuits are neither GFCI nor AFCI protected. I received different answers from two electricians over which is required. Before I start the permit process I’d like to know which is correct. Phoenix uses the 2017 NEC.

    Shops do not require AFCI's, but do require GFCI's, all 120V receptacles are required to have GFCI protection without any exception.

  3. #3
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    I have been busted over similar issues several times. Going down town and fessing up works in our town. You will need an Electrician and a permit, or a homeowner affidavit and permit (if your situation complies), to fix any issues yourself. The ground faults and arc faults are usually required,
    Last edited by Maurice Mcmurry; 05-12-2022 at 8:13 PM.
    Best Regards, Maurice

  4. #4
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    Fortunately, It's easy to deal with the GFCI requirement where all the outlets are already in place using a GFCI breaker for each circuit that requires them. Despite the cost of the breakers, I personally prefer this method because if it trips, the reset is never "behind" something or physically where a GFCI outlet at the head of a circuit is even located.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Miltner View Post
    I have a subpanel that was installed by a licensed electrician but without a permit. I need to get it permitted. The only circuits in the new subpanel are outlets in the garage/workshop. These circuits are neither GFCI nor AFCI protected. I received different answers from two electricians over which is required. Before I start the permit process I’d like to know which is correct. Phoenix uses the 2017 NEC.
    Just as you received different answers from the electricians, you will get different answers here.
    Couple of questions…
    1. Is this a stand-alone workshop/garage near or attached to your dwelling?
    2. What is the floor and where is it in relation to the exterior grade?

    If the answer to the first question is “yes”, then here is the screen shot of the pertinent section of the 2017 NEC:

    NEC 210.8(A)(2)
    7235AAD6-82FC-4312-BF28-BD0754E9369E.jpg

    Take a look at your floor. If it is at or below grade then gfci is required. If it is above grade, then, no.
    In my case I have compacted soil at grade, several inches of pea gravel, 1-4 4” thick concrete block, 4x4 skids, 2x6 joists, then osb flooring.
    No gfci was required. Especially helpful as the 2020 code included 240v receptacle also.

    Take a look at the 2nd column. I captured part of 210.8(B)(8).
    If your garage/workshop is not part of your dwelling, but more commercial or even at a different location, then 210.8(B)(8) is most likely the pertinent code, and yes.
    Comments made here are my own and, according to my children, do not reflect the opinions of any other person... anywhere, anytime.

  6. #6
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    I agree with Jim Becker that GFCI breakers end up being worth the price because getting to the reset button behind a table saw with a half ton of Kharman Ghia parts stacked on it gets old fast. Electrical codes vary dramatically by location, looks like Charlie V brought you the hook up. Good luck and best wishes.

  7. #7
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    My town has a fine for work done without a permit. It is not a lot (maybe $50). May seen counter intuitive if wanting people to fess up. Just a heads up is all, do not let it deter you from inspection.

    If a licensed electrician did the work then there is a high chance you will have no issues. GFI is a good idea whether required by code or not. 2017 is easier than newer versions.

    My advice is to just call the inspector, explain the situation, and ask what steps he wants to bring it under inspection/approval.

    You should be able to get there with minimal hassles

  8. #8
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    My jurisdiction has a 100% penalty...double the cost for a permit after-the-fact. That's why I havent started my groundwork for the new shop building, even though tere are some practical reasons I really want to relative to access from the property next door that will go away within a few weeks.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  9. #9
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    We have some county's with no building department at all. It really shows in some areas. The Kingdom of Callaway (Callaway County MO) succeeded from the USA during the Un-Civil War, neither Union or Confederate, there are some sketchy homes and subdivisions.
    Best Regards, Maurice

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    My jurisdiction has a 100% penalty...double the cost for a permit after-the-fact. That's why I havent started my groundwork for the new shop building, even though tere are some practical reasons I really want to relative to access from the property next door that will go away within a few weeks.
    How long do you have to complete work once it’s pulled? My permit was 1 year but could be extended.
    Comments made here are my own and, according to my children, do not reflect the opinions of any other person... anywhere, anytime.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Velasquez View Post
    How long do you have to complete work once it’s pulled? My permit was 1 year but could be extended.
    I suspect that varies by jurisdiction. I just pulled out the one for my recent whole house generator project. It was issued on 26 January 2022 and says just below that, "THIS PERMIT EXPIRES: January 27, 2027". However, it also says that work must commence within 180 days of permit issue or can also expire 180 days after work is suspended or abandoned.

    It will be interesting to see if things are the same for my building permit for the new shop.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

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