Help with Hammer C3-31 from 2004

[Asger Hallas]

Hi, I'm considering buying an old Hammer C3-31 combo from 2004. But I have a hard time finding any info on machines from that year. In particular I was a little worried after reading this old review https://www.finewoodworking.com/2003...e-c3-31-review.


It's this exact machine here: https://www.world4machines.com/da-dk...c3-31-p1480220


So I wondered if anybody here could help me with:


1. What is the differences between this 2004 machine and the newer Hammer machines?
2. Is a 2004 too old? I would really like to spend more time working with wood, than adjusting and fixing it.
3. Is there anything I should look out for in particular, when I go look at it on monday? How do I know it's not one of those extremely ill reviewed ones?




Really hope you can help me out


//Asger

[Dave Roock]

Reading a 19 year old review may not be relevant. Compare how a new unit looks & look at the price difference. The machine you are going to see looks in good condition and may have seen light usage. Good luck !

[David Stone (CT)]

I have a K3 saw from that era (manufactured in 2000) that is substantially the same as the saw portion of the machine you are looking at and can speak to the saw-related items raised in that review.

First, K3 saws of that era came with the same fence as was used on the combo machines back then. It was not a very good fence, partly due to the fiddly lever arrangement mentioned in the review, and not being as stiff as one would prefer. More recent K3s have what is clearly a vastly superior fence to what came with mine. That said, the original fence was not so bad as to be unusable nor necessarily worse than what was common on other hobby-level machines of this type at that time. I lived with it for few years, but ended up replacing mine with a sliding table compatible Biesemeyer fence. I don't know what replacement options, if any, would exist for an old C3-31, given it's a combo machine where the fence has to serve two masters.

Second, with respect to the review comment regarding the riving knife: while correct that the riving knife attaches to the saw aggregate (in Felder-speak) via a metal arm, this does not result in any problematic "flex." What is true is that getting the riving knife correctly aligned with the blade is a PITA, due to the arm not necessarily being very precisely located and the lack of any built-in adjustment. I used Scotch tape shims where the riving knife meets the mount point to make the necessary fine adjustments. But once accomplished, there is no need to ever repeat the process, assuming you leave the riving knife in place all the time. (I recently removed and replace the knife for the first time in 20 years, in order to install a new zero clearance insert.) I do not know if Hammer has changed the mounting system in the years since.

Third, as to the review's mention of vibration and an improperly aligned sliding table, the former sounds like a defect particular to the unit they received. Assuming the machine you are actually looking at doesn't vibrate excessively, I wouldn't worry about it. As to the sliding table, I suspect the reviewer did not really understand how to align it, a process that does require some time and a methodical approach. In fairness to him, info on setting these machines up properly is far more accessible today than 20 years ago when the review was written, thanks to forums like this and YouTube. The sliding table, outrigger and crosscut fence on my machine, which are the same as the C3 you are looking at, have held up well over 20+ years of extensive hobby use. At least going by outward appearances, Hammer seemingly has not made any substantial changes on the basic Hammer table design in the years since, but they have upgraded the crosscut flip stops and maybe some other accessories.

Finally, as for whether 2004 is too old: assuming the machine runs well and has been used in a hobby setting only and not abused or neglected, I don't see any reason to fear that it will require excessive tinkering or maintenance or that (other than normal wear items) anything mechanical will be clapped out.

[Asger Hallas]

Thank you so much for both of your answers! David, your thorough description of the K3 really helps.

When I tried to understand the "having to to serve two masters" part, I got a little confused, as there actually seems to be two fences on this machine (three if you count the shaper). I see now this is not the case, even on the newer ones. Is this an add-on then?

Regarding the accessories, do you know if the newer flip stops can be used on this old machine too? And what about parts for it... can you still get parts for the K3?

[Dave Roock]

Thank you so much for both of your answers! David, your thorough description of the K3 really helps.

When I tried to understand the "having to to serve two masters" part, I got a little confused, as there actually seems to be two fences on this machine (three if you count the shaper). I see now this is not the case, even on the newer ones. Is this an add-on then?

Regarding the accessories, do you know if the newer flip stops can be used on this old machine too? And what about parts for it... can you still get parts for the K3?

The member Erik Loza is a former recent Felder rep - he is a very good person & may be able to answer any questions if you PM him.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, the shaper spindle will probably be 30mm or 1” sleeved to 30mm or 1 1/4”.

None of the above are an issue, it’s a good shaper, and most of the tooling in the world is metric. I normally suggest that customers who have no tooling buy the 30mm spindle as they can share grooving tools with the saw.

The saw may not have dado capability, check that, and check whether the machine has a scoring saw, depends upon what was ordered.

The machine is a 50Hz machine, 400 volts 3 phase, how do you plan to power this?

Check shaper and saw shaft speeds as it may be running 20% too fast.

Check jointer knife type, hopefully the Hammer disposable cartridge type that work well and require no adjustments, knife change in under 5 minutes. Much better than the knives that require sharpening and adjustment.

I like the B3 better than the C3 as the B3 has a tilting shaper spindle and wider rip capacity, wouldn’t hesitate to own a C3 however.

If the price is right it could be a good buy……Rod

[Erik Loza]

Hi Asger. I don’t log into Sawmill Creek very often these days but just happened to and saw this thread.

It sounds to me like you are asking the group if you should buy this machine. That’s a very difficult question to answer. If you truly want a machine with zero hassles, I would pay the extra and invest in a new machine. In that case, you would have a full warranty, Felder support, etc. There is nothing wrong with earlier designs but “if” something goes wrong, it will be 100% on you to pay for/repair. No matter how well cared-for, we are still talking about a 20 year old machine on that one you are looking at. There is a saying here in the US: “Inexpensive, fast, or reliable: Pick two because you can’t have all three”. I hope this makes sense and good luck with your search.

Erik

[David Stone (CT)]

When I tried to understand the "having to to serve two masters" part, I got a little confused, as there actually seems to be two fences on this machine (three if you count the shaper). I see now this is not the case, even on the newer ones. Is this an add-on then?

Regarding the accessories, do you know if the newer flip stops can be used on this old machine too? And what about parts for it... can you still get parts for the K3?

With regard to the fence, I now see I overlooked that this particular machine does indeed have its own dedicated rip fence. I suspect the original owner paid extra to get that. My K3 had the exact fence that is on the jointer of the machine you're looking at and this was what Hammer supplied standard, at least when I bought it. Examining what's actually on the machine you've got a bead on, I notice the saw rip fence uses a standard locking handle rather than the annoying Kipp levers arrangement. I've never encountered this fence in person, but certainly it looks more user friendly. So that's another element of the bad review you can discount.

As far as the flip stop, the extrusion on the current generation Hammer crosscut fence appears to me to be the same as mine/this machine. If so, the current flip stops are presumably compatible, but I'd confirm that with Hammer. That said, the old ones work perfectly fine.

Regarding parts, the K3 is still made, so the question is what have they changed since the K3, C3 and other core Hammer line machines were introduced in the 1990s and what older machine elements, if any, do they no longer support. I don't know the full answer to that. The only part I've ever contacted them for was probably 15 years ago or more, when the brake function died on my machine. They sent me a new electronics board, but I never installed it, partly because the wiring harness had almost no slack, saving Hammer a few pennies on wire but making replacement a PITA. The Hammer line was overhauled c. 2005, when they shifted to the white paint scheme and made some upgrades to things like fences, etc. Based on pictures I've seen of newer machines, I can't immediately see that they changed anything internally on the K3, but I could be wrong about that. They did definitely change the dimensions of the table insert IMG_3397.jpg

[Asger Hallas]

Hi Asger. I don’t log into Sawmill Creek very often these days but just happened to and saw this thread.

It sounds to me like you are asking the group if you should buy this machine. That’s a very difficult question to answer. If you truly want a machine with zero hassles, I would pay the extra and invest in a new machine. In that case, you would have a full warranty, Felder support, etc. There is nothing wrong with earlier designs but “if” something goes wrong, it will be 100% on you to pay for/repair. No matter how well cared-for, we are still talking about a 20 year old machine on that one you are looking at. There is a saying here in the US: “Inexpensive, fast, or reliable: Pick two because you can’t have all three”. I hope this makes sense and good luck with your search.

Erik

Thanks for the reply! You are right, I do kind of ask if I should buy this. Kind of hoping everybody just said either definitely YES or NO. But nothing's ever that easy
It's a very good point about having support and warranty. The problem right now with Felder is actually that I can't pick "reliable and fast" as their delivery time is about 8 months last I asked :S
I did miss a few good used opportunities the past several months, and I must admit I consider just waiting a few more month and see. But I just have so much I need to get done with it

[Asger Hallas]

With regard to the fence, I now see I overlooked that this particular machine does indeed have its own dedicated rip fence. I suspect the original owner paid extra to get that. My K3 had the exact fence that is on the jointer of the machine you're looking at and this was what Hammer supplied standard, at least when I bought it. Examining what's actually on the machine you've got a bead on, I notice the saw rip fence uses a standard locking handle rather than the annoying Kipp levers arrangement. I've never encountered this fence in person, but certainly it looks more user friendly. So that's another element of the bad review you can discount.

As far as the flip stop, the extrusion on the current generation Hammer crosscut fence appears to me to be the same as mine/this machine. If so, the current flip stops are presumably compatible, but I'd confirm that with Hammer. That said, the old ones work perfectly fine.

Regarding parts, the K3 is still made, so the question is what have they changed since the K3, C3 and other core Hammer line machines were introduced in the 1990s and what older machine elements, if any, do they no longer support. I don't know the full answer to that. The only part I've ever contacted them for was probably 15 years ago or more, when the brake function died on my machine. They sent me a new electronics board, but I never installed it, partly because the wiring harness had almost no slack, saving Hammer a few pennies on wire but making replacement a PITA. The Hammer line was overhauled c. 2005, when they shifted to the white paint scheme and made some upgrades to things like fences, etc. Based on pictures I've seen of newer machines, I can't immediately see that they changed anything internally on the K3, but I could be wrong about that. They did definitely change the dimensions of the table insert IMG_3397.jpg

Thanks again for your very informative replies! I will contact Felder on monday and see what they say about parts and accessories.

Regarding the brake... I wasn't aware it had one. The current website does not mention it, as far as I can see. Do you know, how I can check if it works?

That's a good looking fence, you've got there

[Asger Hallas]

Thanks for the reply and suggestions! I have a few questions though

The saw may not have dado capability, check that, and check whether the machine has a scoring saw, depends upon what was ordered.

Is there an easy way to see that? It is not sold by the owner, but a friend of his, so I'm sure if he knows.

The machine is a 50Hz machine, 400 volts 3 phase, how do you plan to power this?

I live in Denmark, and all houses here have 3 phase, 400v power. About the only good thing about being a energy consumer in Europe right now

Check shaper and saw shaft speeds as it may be running 20% too fast.

Again, is there an easy way to do this? And if it runs too fast, is that a no-go, or can I do something about it?

Check jointer knife type, hopefully the Hammer disposable cartridge type that work well and require no adjustments, knife change in under 5 minutes. Much better than the knives that require sharpening and adjustment.

I think I saw a video about that, I guess I can just check that they double sided, right?

I like the B3 better than the C3 as the B3 has a tilting shaper spindle and wider rip capacity, wouldnÂ’t hesitate to own a C3 however.

Good point about the tilting shaper. I have never used a shaper, but I can imagine it would be handy!

If the price is right it could be a good buyÂ…Â…Rod

Now that's a good question. The asking price is about 53% less than a new one, on sale, but it also has a few accessories. I find it kind of expensive, but I guess I can negotiate it down. And also, Felder's delivery times is about 8 months. On Felders websites, there's a used machines section and I saw that all the Hammer A3s are priced significantly higher than new ones :S

[Greg Quenneville]

Hi Asger…

1. Don’t worry about the 20% faster speed…it was assumed that you were in the US with 60 Hz electricity. Since you are in 50 Hz land the machine is correct for your power.

2. That vintage machine isn’t as refined as the later versions. I used to know the former Felder dealer here and he disliked that era machine. They were pretty flimsy compared to the same or earlier Felder machines. The later, white Hammer ones were significantly improved. Felder doesn’t significantly improve anything unless there are too many complaints.

I have a 1999 Felder BF6 series combo. If you could find one of those I think you would be happier.

If you have sufficient space for separate machines you might have more options and a better selection. I just glanced at Marktplaats.NL and Machine Seeker in Germany out of curiosity about the European used machine market…and there are many alternatives.

If your budget is under 50,000 DK that Hammer might be your best option though.

Greg

[Asger Hallas]

Hi Greg, thank you for the reply!

1. DonÂ’t worry about the 20% faster speedÂ…it was assumed that you were in the US with 60 Hz electricity. Since you are in 50 Hz land the machine is correct for your power.

Ah, that makes much more sense. I'm sorry I didn't state that up front.

2. That vintage machine isnÂ’t as refined as the later versions. I used to know the former Felder dealer here and he disliked that era machine. They were pretty flimsy compared to the same or earlier Felder machines. The later, white Hammer ones were significantly improved. Felder doesnÂ’t significantly improve anything unless there are too many complaints.

I have a 1999 Felder BF6 series combo. If you could find one of those I think you would be happier.

Ok, that's exactly what I feared. I have never seen a new Hammer machine in real life, only the Felders. I guess I have to go actually touch a newer one, before I make up my mind.

If you have sufficient space for separate machines you might have more options and a better selection. I just glanced at Marktplaats.NL and Machine Seeker in Germany out of curiosity about the European used machine marketÂ…and there are many alternatives.

If your budget is under 50,000 DK that Hammer might be your best option though.

I have room for separate machines. I'm looking at this one simply because it was nearby, under budget (which you guessed about right ) and "get it all at once" easy. But I'm starting to think, I should maybe build the workshop slower, one machine at a time. Maybe order a newer Hammer A1-31 now while on sale (22,500 DKK with the normal blades) and then live with my plungesaw, tracks and router a little while longer. Hmm...

Regarding the used machines, I can see that Machine Seeker is a better place to look, though prices are still high, they're at least lower than new ones
But I guess that's how it is right now. But try take a look at the prices on the Dutch branch of Felder's own used site: https://www.world4machines.com/nl-nl...achines-c55426 :-O
Might just be a Dutch thing though.

[Greg Quenneville]

Good luck then in your search. I used to have a Felder CF731, now this BF6-31 from a couple of months earlier. I have reduced the pain of a combo machine a little bit by also having a seperate spindle moulder.

Setting up the moulder takes quite a bit of time to mount the cutter, adjust the speed, mount the fence assembly, set the heights and fences and the safety do-dads.

Its much better to leave a seperate moulder set-up for the duration of the project so that you can use the saw as needed. The planer/thicknesser functions are pretty quick to change over and only a couple of minutes to set up.

I notice a couple of older, pre-electronics Martin saws going pretty cheaply.

Greg

Btw, that price on the A3-31 is pretty cheap.