Advice to stain and finish rift white oak

[Jim Becker]

If you don't want the ambering effect...the finisher will potentially have to use a different product from the solvent based finish they are currently using. That's really the bottom line. John mentioned some very good options that would allow the finisher to at least still deal with the same vendor.

[John TenEyck]

What is your experience on the chemical resistance and overall durability of the GF Enduro Clear Poly? I did have a conversation with one of their reps the other day and he claimed that they tested it against Sherwin Williams Water White CV and their Clear Poly is more durable. Here's a link to the Sherwin Williams CV that my cabinet maker is planning on using:
https://industrial.sherwin-williams....h.9159500.html

I can talk to him to see if he can use something from GF or a different finish that is water based from SW. I am just a little leery of asking him to try a different finish process then what he had done in the past. Is there one that you would recommend from SW that is as durable as the CV for the kitchen environment?

Thanks.

I have no experience with SW's Water White CV, or any solvent based finish, sorry. GF's Enduro Clear Poly is resistant to short term exposure to most chemicals and cleaners. Like many waterbornes, strong ammonia containing products (Windex, 409) will damage it if left on it. I used it on my own kitchen cabinets. It's held up well for the two or three years since I did it, but it can and has been damaged in a couple of spots from grease streaks, not enough for anyone but me to notice, but I see it. My wife is an enthusiastic cook! No one component product is likely to be as durable as a catalyzed one. But really, what do you plan to do, wash it down daily. As long as the finish is KCMA rated I'd be happy. Whatever is used only has to last 20 or 25 years anyway, max, and then it's going to get replaced.

I'm not suggesting your cabinet shop use Enduro Clear Poly, only that they are unlikely to get that no-finish look with a solvent based product, and if they do it won't be a simple process. That's why I suggested the cabinet shop look at SW's waterborne products, Kem Aqua Plus and the Sayerlack waterbornes. At least they can lean on their supplier to give them whatever support they need.

Your other option is to find a cabinet shop that already uses waterbornes and have them build your cabinets.

John

[Jeff Roltgen]

Did this about 5 years ago an a kitchen. Same look, except we used reconstituted QS white oak veneer.
Before converting to water based products a couple years ago, Sherwin Williams T77F63 "water white" was a favorite of mine for close to a decade, but it will deepen the background, bringing up a more sandy tone.
On the aforementioned, I therefore used GF High performance. Yes, it has just a pinch of amber added, but no appreciable difference in the final look. Key here is how the original first coat of a water-based vs solvent based topcoat penetrates and affects tone of the wood. We never considered any whitening at all, as the GF HP returned to almost the same tone of the raw veneer once dried. Bingo. Just what you see in the example photo. Sorry, haven't the time to dig out my images of that kitchen.

I would suggest:
1> If they are insisting on using the T77 series Sherwin product, a pickling/liming stain will likely be needed, and as already stated, this means samples.
2> If they are willing to play ball, ask them to use a water based topcoat, and avoid all the hand-wringing over the stain use, selection, application, color tone, etc. Yes, you'll want a sample of it as well.

Good luck.

[Hung Le]

I have no experience with SW's Water White CV, or any solvent based finish, sorry. GF's Enduro Clear Poly is resistant to short term exposure to most chemicals and cleaners. Like many waterbornes, strong ammonia containing products (Windex, 409) will damage it if left on it. I used it on my own kitchen cabinets. It's held up well for the two or three years since I did it, but it can and has been damaged in a couple of spots from grease streaks, not enough for anyone but me to notice, but I see it. My wife is an enthusiastic cook! No one component product is likely to be as durable as a catalyzed one. But really, what do you plan to do, wash it down daily. As long as the finish is KCMA rated I'd be happy. Whatever is used only has to last 20 or 25 years anyway, max, and then it's going to get replaced.

I'm not suggesting your cabinet shop use Enduro Clear Poly, only that they are unlikely to get that no-finish look with a solvent based product, and if they do it won't be a simple process. That's why I suggested the cabinet shop look at SW's waterborne products, Kem Aqua Plus and the Sayerlack waterbornes. At least they can lean on their supplier to give them whatever support they need.

Your other option is to find a cabinet shop that already uses waterbornes and have them build your cabinets.

John

Unfortunately SW said they don't carry any water based product in their facility where I am located. I looked into other water based finishes but there is not much option where I am at (San Diego, CA) which is surprising. GF is basically the only option around here. Changing cabinet shop at this stage is also not an option for us as it will add significant delay and logistic issues.

I am seriously considering Clear Poly. I really wanted our cabinets to last 20-25 years before even considering replacing. The chemical resistance of Clear Poly seems like it is almost there but I am concerned about its ability to deal with ammonia which is quite common when I found one of your old post that you reported your chemical testing. https://forums.woodnet.net/showthread.php?tid=7070964

[Hung Le]

I just got a sample from my cabinet maker that only has the SW White Water CV on it with no stain conditioner or stain. Like my cabinet maker said, it added yellow/amber compared to the unfinished veneer. I am pretty disappointed considering that SW claims this is "water white" clear. I expected a little darkening but not this orange look. The finished piece of the right is actually slightly more orange and darker in person.

IMG_7493.jpg

I did try GF High performance on a piece of veneer and like you said it has a slightly darken with a tiny pinch of amber but otherwise looks very close to the tone of the original unfinished wood. My only concern if I end up with HP (or the slightly stronger Clear Poly) is the ability of the finish to withstand common cleaning products with ammonia. My wife isn't the most careful of person so I can see her accidentally spraying and some would land on the cabinets.

I am playing with some white stain and out of the box, Minwax Simply White is pretty decent. Just a little whiter than I would like. I am going to try to dilute it down to see if it ends up being good enough for us.

[John TenEyck]

Unfortunately SW said they don't carry any water based product in their facility where I am located. I looked into other water based finishes but there is not much option where I am at (San Diego, CA) which is surprising. GF is basically the only option around here. Changing cabinet shop at this stage is also not an option for us as it will add significant delay and logistic issues.

I am seriously considering Clear Poly. I really wanted our cabinets to last 20-25 years before even considering replacing. The chemical resistance of Clear Poly seems like it is almost there but I am concerned about its ability to deal with ammonia which is quite common when I found one of your old post that you reported your chemical testing. https://forums.woodnet.net/showthread.php?tid=7070964

Enduro Clear Poly is pretty durable. Brief exposure to Windex or 409 won't hurt it. The testing I did was 1 hour exposure if I remember correctly. It was done to see how finishes responded to extreme exposure. My wife is a great cook but an extremely messy one. Stuff gets slopped everywhere, down the front of the cabinets and especially around the door and drawer pulls. I clean them off when I see it, but sometimes it's several days before I do. After 40 years I think I have convinced her to never use Windex or 409 on cabinets (again) but who knows. She used Comet on some others a few years ago. The dirt came off but so did the finish! With that in mind, after 2 or 3 years the kitchen cabinets still look new and I fully expect they will continue to look good for many years to come.

That said, there are plenty of waterborne products with higher durability than Clear Poly. GF's CV is one of them. I have never used it so I can't comment on the color, whether it's water clear or has an amber tint. Lenmar MegaVar is another possibility. And ChemCraft makes a waterborne 2K poly if you really want to go top shelf.

But SW's saying they don't carry their own waterborne products is not the same as saying they can't get them. Ask them specifically if they can order in Kem Aqua Plus or Sayerlack HydroPlus. If they blow you off, call a couple of other SW stores.

John

[Jim Becker]

But SW's saying they don't carry their own waterborne products is not the same as saying they can't get them. Ask them specifically if they can order in Kem Aqua Plus or Sayerlack HydroPlus. If they blow you off, call a couple of other SW stores.

^^ This for sure. SW has a lot of stores in many areas and some are "better stocked" than others, but all of them can order what they don't have.