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Thread: New Shop - Best Dust Collection Vendor

  1. #16
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    Mar 2006
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    Eric,

    I recently upgraded a Shop Fox 2 hp model to an Oneida v-3000 3hp along with new, more extensive ductwork. It made a big difference and I'm very pleased with the results.

    Cliff
    The problem with the world is that intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
    Charles Bukowski

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Wilson View Post
    The variable speed drive in the Oneida Smart Gorilla Pro is a big advancement. The answer to most dust collection problems is more air. The variable speed does this over a range of conditions. A 4 inch port that needs 800 CFM to catch all the dust. No problem. Conventional fixed speed blowers cannot match it.

    The Harvey also has variable speed. It has a different separation technology than the usual vertical cyclone.
    Any 3 phase dust extractor with a VFD will do exactly the same thing including Cleavue. Personally I would not buy a single phase dust extractor if you gave me the money and I can't understand why the dominant companies in the industry still sell them.
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 05-01-2022 at 9:22 AM. Reason: fixed quote tagging
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    Any 3 phase dust extractor with a VFD will do exactly the same thing including Cleavue. .
    It's not the inclusion of variable speed, but the automation of the same with the Oneida setup. It senses airflow conditions and adjusts accordingly for most efficient extraction.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    It's not the inclusion of variable speed, but the automation of the same with the Oneida setup. It senses airflow conditions and adjusts accordingly for most efficient extraction.
    That can be done automatically with a VFD if it is programmed correctly. I did a commercial installation where the system did exactly that but don't ask me how the programming was done because I don't have a clue.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  5. #20
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    That's the thing...Oneida has done the work so the "average consumer" can just buy a system that has the automatic flow sensing and adjustments. Of course, that largely benefits folks in North America, although I believe that the company does market some products in other geographies. I do agree that such a thing can be accomplished on other systems for sure, however, with time and money.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  6. #21
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    Yes, but the option is still there using any three phase DE. If Oneida were really serious they would not sell single phase machines at all as they clearly have internal VFD's that does the job. I have formed the view in recent times that single phase is too restrictive for efficient DE control but it has taken a long time for that to finally sink in. I think that is because all the cyclones I have installed or sold over many years have been three phase so I have never given the single phase much thought. All those cyclones have been Clearvues into hobby workshops with only a few commercial installations and everyone loves the result.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  7. #22
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    I should clarify what I wrote above, when I say 3 phase I am saying that a three phase motor is used by utilising a VFD from a single phase power supply. I was able to introduce Clearvue Cyclones to Oz about 10 years ago because this was the only way we could do it and achieve 60hz/3450RPM motor speed and Oneida are clearly using the same method with an internal VFD. A VFD can be be used to control motor speed using a three phase power supply but I believe that would be fairly rare in the US.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  8. #23
    Chris, using a 3 phase motor and variable frequency drive which also converts single phase to 3 phase is a great idea. I would have appreciated the lighter 3 phase motor when I was lifting my single phase motor and impeller 9 ft up in the air. Unfortunately, no has not done it on a dust collector yet in the US. Keep preaching it. Surely, someone here will take up the challenge.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    That can be done automatically with a VFD if it is programmed correctly. I did a commercial installation where the system did exactly that but don't ask me how the programming was done because I don't have a clue.
    I have the Clearvue EF-5 ordered with 5hp 3-phase motor (for my 1-ph shop). I put a Huanyang VFD on it primarily for 1->3-ph conversion and programmed to run at up to 60hz. And so it stands today - working great. The tinker imperative is now suppressed.

    Work and SWMBO's honey-do list are impeding my rountuit list, but the VFD internally supports PID control, can sense current, and can easily be re-config'd to run at 70-80hz max (will experiment, but >80hz could get LOUD?). I will use the amp draw as the PV (input) to the PID, and the CV (output) will be the speed command, SP (setpoint) will be the motor's FLA. The VFD will try to run at the motor FLA, up to the max Hz; faster with small duct/low flow, slower with large duct/high flow.

    My personal neoSMART should be possible with no additional hardware, sensors, or connections. Simply setup the parameters. I'll be glad to report how ...maybe tomorrow, or the 15th, or August, or retirement?
    Last edited by Malcolm McLeod; 05-01-2022 at 1:59 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by james manutes View Post
    I'm interested in which DC Oneida suggests for 900 sq. ft. shop size and those tools . I'm not in need of anything myself , but curious just the same .
    Hi James, the size isn't based upon square footage, it's based upon the duct length and the machine requirements.

    My major tools are a saw with a 5" port for under blade and a 2" port above blade.

    I also have a jointer/planer with a 5 inch port, and a bandsaw and 2 floor sweeps.

    My duct lengths are extremely short under 12 feet at the longest

    I have a 1.5 HP Oneida Cyclone.............Regards, Rod.

  11. #26
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    It sure sounds like everyone is on-board with the Oneida. I’m thinking that will be my next big purchase. I just have to explain to my wife how I need it after buying the Makita dust extractor. No matter how many times I’ve done it - I never know how to start that conversation!

    But I’m not understanding the need for the variable speed (at least for me).

    I’m actually quite adept at the technology and then some in terms of the drive and how to make it do whatever I need it to. But I don’t understand a need for it in moving dust from my machines. I’m thinking it’s because I exhaust outside and don’t have the issue of optimizing for best separation and such. I can see that and possibly that’s why it is viewed this way. If I were trying to keep my filters clean as long as possibly then I’d do that. When I’m using a small hose with a lot of restriction such as for my sander the motor just does less work. When I have large ports open then I want it to do more work and it does.

    Is the dust separation optimization the only reason for the speed control?

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Arnsdorff View Post
    ... But I don’t understand a need for it in moving dust from my machines. ...
    I listened to the Oneida sales pitch before my purchase. I never heard 'separation optimization', but maybe they changed the pitch. As I understood it at the time, they allow you to connect small(er) duct >> less air flow >> less Hp required >> lower amps, so the SMART Boost responds by an 'overspeed' of the motor to boost suction >> up to nameplate FLA >> recover some additional air flow. ...If you use small duct.

    And I don't really feel the need for variable speed either - hence my procrastination. Fear of SWMBO has nothing to do with it. Nothing. Really. Tho' the ramped start from a VFD is nice, and the 5Vdc IO allows dirt simple wireless remote start/stop. The same IO will get interlocked with a bin high level sensor.
    Last edited by Malcolm McLeod; 05-02-2022 at 4:02 PM. Reason: excuses

  13. #28
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    I’ve done more study on this and I have discovered basic physics still can’t be overturned by marketing. Although it’s always fun to believe in magic.

    I’m sure others here have done the math but when I finally did the math (thanks for a helpful video from Blake Pizzey -https://youtu.be/QyWQOec9m6o) it turns out I can make a significant improvement by going to 6” ducts (currently everything is 4”.

    Feedback from James M (helpful SMC messages after seeing my post here) helped me realize my current unit can delivery much better performance. Some of you need the additional flow from the bigger units - I may not. If I can get my flow up to the 800 cfm range (and maybe a little higher) then I should see a dramatic improvement.

    I’m going with adding an Oneida Super Dust Deputy XL (getting rid of my clunky Thien setup) to my 2 hp Grizzly blower. I’m mounting it all vertically which both reduces space and a much more efficient ductwork.

    I’ll just use the 4” for the tool connections and may increase a couple to 6” ports.

    Going through the calcs was eye opening (usually I do the geeky thing first). Recommendations are to keep velocity above 4,000 fpm. I’m going for 6k and will verify I don’t fall below 5k with some pitot tube measurements (all those vane anemometer posts make me twitch in a bad way).

    This also keeps my pressure drop in a range my Grizzly blower appears to be able to handle. Although I can’t find a fan curve (the magic of marketing hides the important stuff), it appears my unit should be capable of delivering 800-1000 cfm as long as I keep the pressure drop under 6-8” H20. The marketing tries to make you think it can beat that but I’ll find out the hard way.

    If I do get it all mounted up and fail this then my fallback is to buy the lowest cost motor blower upgrade that can deliver the needed performance (not the cheapest - I’m going for cost effective). I suspect this would be the next size up impeller and motor blower.

    The nice thing about this choice is it is actually the most space effective and cost effective.

    I definitely understand this is more work and time than buying a unit that could just plug in (well I’d have to change my ductwork either way). So I’m not knocking buying such a unit because it can definitely be worth it. But the space savings is what is really driving my decision along with the bonus of being less costly.

    Additionally, I see the new Oneida offerings for some high pressure units. I’ve seen some good videos showing good results. But the magic of those is in the higher pressure (it’s like a shop vac on steroids). They can’t deliver the flow needed for my setup. So no magic there. Fans/Blowers/Pumps all have basic physics constraining their operation. I need more flow and to do that for a reasonable size and cost, I need a high volume blower/impeller design and I’ll have to keep my pressure loss down while maintaining a good velocity in my ducts. No magic bullets.

    But I still believe in magic when it’s fun to do so!

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Arnsdorff View Post
    It sure sounds like everyone is on-board with the Oneida. I’m thinking that will be my next big purchase. I just have to explain to my wife how I need it after buying the Makita dust extractor. No matter how many times I’ve done it - I never know how to start that conversation!

    But I’m not understanding the need for the variable speed (at least for me).

    I’m actually quite adept at the technology and then some in terms of the drive and how to make it do whatever I need it to. But I don’t understand a need for it in moving dust from my machines. I’m thinking it’s because I exhaust outside and don’t have the issue of optimizing for best separation and such. I can see that and possibly that’s why it is viewed this way. If I were trying to keep my filters clean as long as possibly then I’d do that. When I’m using a small hose with a lot of restriction such as for my sander the motor just does less work. When I have large ports open then I want it to do more work and it does.

    Is the dust separation optimization the only reason for the speed control?
    The variable speed is to pull more air through small ports. When motor current drops indicating lower flow, the controller speeds up the blower to keep current steady. Power is proportional to rpm cubed so it takes a high power motor to make it work. The design goal is to maintain at least 800 Cfm even on tools with 4 inch ports. That volume flow according to Bill Pentz is supposed have a large enough capture radius so that it pulls in the cloud of fine dust that the cutting tool generates. All the gaps around the cabinet of the cutting tool have enough inward air velocity to prevent escape of dust. It mostly works. It does not capture 100% of the dust. When the table saw blade emerges from the back of a cut, there is a spray of sawdust. On a jointer, when the trailing edge of the workpiece clears the infeed table leaving a gap, a spray of chips emerges. Situations like that do not have enough air velocity at the point where chips and sawdust are created to capture them all.

    Come up to La Follette to see the Oneida 5hp with variable speed work. I have a hot wire anemometer and a manometer so you can measure air flow and pressure around the tools and a Dylos particle counter so you can see how clean the air is while cutting. I still have my old 2 hp Oneida that, with some effort, could be hooked up for comparison. It would be fun to have you and couple of nearby members who are interested to come for demonstration at my shop.

    Oh and Eric, bring your wife. She and Janicewhokeepsmehumble can discuss how husbands who can fix things are useful.
    Last edited by Thomas Wilson; 05-08-2022 at 5:07 PM.

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