Weight limit for cope and stick joinery?

[Jim Becker]

I would like to find a way to build these reasonably efficiently. I don't have a slot mortiser but I do have a hollow chisel mortiser. Alternatively I could potentially get a custom cutter from freeborn to create a even deeper profile but the question would be how much is enough to be sufficient. The first 3 doors will all be for my own shop so I can experiment a little more with those then I could with a paying job.

The easiest way to do deep mortises is to do them before you mill with the Freeborn cope/stick set using whatever method you prefer for that kind of operation. That gives you flat edges to cut from. Yes, it's an extra step, but it's clean and will be completely hidden once you assemble your doors.

[Mitch schiffer]

The easiest way to do deep mortises is to do them before you mill with the Freeborn cope/stick set using whatever method you prefer for that kind of operation. That gives you flat edges to cut from. Yes, it's an extra step, but it's clean and will be completely hidden once you assemble your doors.

How would you suggest doing the mortise on the rails for the floating tenon? I can't fit a piece on end into the hollow chisel mortiser. I can't really see a way to use a long integral tenon with profile on the shaper.

[Kevin Jenness]

I do have a large shaper (7.5hp, tilting spindle, and sliding table). I would like to find a way to do this on the shaper without several other processes for the joinery. Im ok with spending a good bit of money on cutters if I can come up with a reliable processes to make these. I have about 40 doors total to make for this particular building.

I would suggest getting a pair of tenoning discs that will accept corrugated back cutters to cut the tenon cheeks and copes in one operation. You will probably want to have a matching set of sticking cutters made at the same time, or send a sticking sample to the grinding service to match the cope knives. https://cggschmidt.com/proddetail.php?prod=MH790 p. 32 in their online catalog. You will need a solid hollow chisel mortiser (or swing chisel mortiser- there's one on Woodweb right now) as well. And order the book.

I get by with a medium duty shaper and a stationary slot mortiser using cope and stick/stub tenon tooling with added spline tenons for occasional door work, but the above system is more efficient. Arguably better/stronger as well, but I have found my setup to work well and the slot mortiser is quite versatile.

For more info on door machinery and tooling Joe Calhoon has made any number of informative posts here and at Woodweb and offers joinery workshops at his shop in Colorado. Here is a link to his UTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZ2...uopJHaNcpQwrCQ

[Jeff Roltgen]

Many others want to say this, and I don't mean to be nasty, please try not to take this too personally, but:

40 doors to build, but you've not done a single exterior yet?
Needing guidance regarding the proper joinery?

Tell them to call someone else while you sign up for some classes and learn properly, with someone fully knowledgeable in this highly specialized trade. Otherwise, I'm afraid you are about to waste a ton of their money and your time, which will eventually be your lost money as failures begin stacking up. Could be devastating to your business. Not to mention, you are hardly equipped to quote an accurate cost, not knowing what is actually involved.

Custom passage and entry doors are sexy, and I continually hear other trades people remarking after hearing what a custom door costs, that they too, could be making a mint producing something that is just a larger version of a cabinet door. Couldn't be any further from the truth. The complexities of an insulated wooden door would make their heads spin.

Mr. Sochar's book is an interesting read, and is full of pages of his dissertations, but you will not find the actual step by step guide that you are needing in that publication.

Trying to be gentle yet honest here; a book and a few questions answered in an online forum are not remotely enough to turn you into a passage door specialist overnight. Hands-on training should be sought, and is available. Perhaps you can buy some time to do so, then dive into that large obligation with 100% confidence. It's worth it.

Again, I am terribly sorry for this post, but it is honestly meant to help more than you may realize. Please, forgive me for preaching.

Seriously, good luck.

jeff

[Mitch schiffer]

Jeff i understand what you are saying. To clarify this is my building that I am working on it is not a paying job. 5 doors are entry doors and the rest are passage doors. I have built passage doors before and am confident in my ability to build those. I do want all the doors to match. I have built a couple entry doors with a adjustable groover/ rabbiting head and reinforced it with dowels. Im simply looking for a more efficient way to build them while keeping the profiles matching to the passage doors.

[Mitch schiffer]

I would suggest getting a pair of tenoning discs that will accept corrugated back cutters to cut the tenon cheeks and copes in one operation. You will probably want to have a matching set of sticking cutters made at the same time, or send a sticking sample to the grinding service to match the cope knives. https://cggschmidt.com/proddetail.php?prod=MH790 p. 32 in their online catalog.

Thanks I will look into this. I haven't seen one of these before and didn't see a picture on their website. I will chek with a local tooling supplier and see if they can get something similar.

[Kevin Jenness]

Thanks I will look into this. I haven't seen one of these before and didn't see a picture on their website. I will chek with a local tooling supplier and see if they can get something similar.

If you look at "standard coping discs" on p. 32 in the Schmidt catalog on their website you will see what I mean. https://cggschmidt.com/3d-flip-book/schmidt-catalog/

[Rod Sheridan]

How would you suggest doing the mortise on the rails for the floating tenon? I can't fit a piece on end into the hollow chisel mortiser. I can't really see a way to use a long integral tenon with profile on the shaper.

Unless I’m not understanding the question a cutter on a stub spindle will make the tenon and cope….Regards, Rod

[Jim Dwight]

40 doors is enough to justify a Domino XL from my point of view. It will be by far the fastest and easiest way to add some long floating tenons to each joint. Deepest mortise it can make is 70mm, almost 3 inches (140mm tenon). You can use premade tenons or make your own. If you make them, they can be as wide as you want and as thick as you want. For mortises thicker than 14mm you have to plunge multiple times, that is the same technique that you use to make wider mortises. I have made them as wide as 6 inches, it is very fast and easy. You can add the mortises after you cope and stick or before. Some people put smaller tenons in the middle of the cope and stick joint to beef up cabinet doors. You could use the same technique or make your added tenons the same thickness as the little integral tenons. Widest cutter is 14mm, that might be big enough but, if not, you can just overlap the cuts.

If you get one, I guarantee you will find it handy for other things. It is a nice accurate tool. I find the mm dimensions a little annoying but not that difficult to work with.

[Mitch schiffer]

If you look at "standard coping discs" on p. 32 in the Schmidt catalog on their website you will see what I mean. https://cggschmidt.com/3d-flip-book/schmidt-catalog/

Thanks I see it now. Are these intended to remove all the material for a tenon or do they just cut the cope after the bulk of the material has been cut away?

[Mitch schiffer]

Unless I’m not understanding the question a cutter on a stub spindle will make the tenon and cope….Regards, Rod

I looked into a stub spindle once before and couldn't find one for my shaper. I have a powermatic ts29.

[Jared Sankovich]

Thanks I see it now. Are these intended to remove all the material for a tenon or do they just cut the cope after the bulk of the material has been cut away?

They remove all the material and cut the cope.

[Jim Becker]

How would you suggest doing the mortise on the rails for the floating tenon? I can't fit a piece on end into the hollow chisel mortiser. I can't really see a way to use a long integral tenon with profile on the shaper.

I'd setup to do these mortises with a router and make tenon stock with rounded edges to keep things efficient. A simple jig to align things indentially on every piece would be a handy way to do it. I'd not use a hollow chisel mortiser for this kind of work, personally.

[Kevin Jenness]

Thanks I see it now. Are these intended to remove all the material for a tenon or do they just cut the cope after the bulk of the material has been cut away?

With enough horsepower and a relief cut on the inside of the knives they should be able to make a long coped tenon in one pass. I have done tenons up to 2" on a 5 hp shaper in thinner stock. Even if you had to hog off the material with another method or in two passes it would still be a good way to get a consistent thickness tenon with a well fitted cope. A stub spindle can do copes one face at a time but they are hard to find for most machines and the setup would be more fussy.

The Domino is also a very fast method of adding strength to a basic cope and stick joint.

Garniga is another source for door tooling.

You would do well to search the archives here and at Woodweb for door tenon making. There are a lot of options and you need to tailor your investment to the type and volume of the work you do.

[William Hodge]

Get a tenoner.
The tenons can be full length, through tenons. The cope cutters cope, and make the tenon cheeks. I make coped rails with 5" long tenons. Through mortises aren't hard, just make lines on the stiles.
Even an old Millbury can do it, just go slowly and take small passes.