Weight limit for cope and stick joinery?

[Richard Coers]

If you don't want to buy more machinery, use your plunge router (Elu or Dewalt for me) with the long guide bars and 2 fences on it for the floating tenons, before you do the cope and sticking. When I built big doors, I put in 2 floating tenons in each joint and then a long lag bolt in a counterbored hole. I built like that for a strip club here in Peoria and they lasted for 15 years until they built a new club. They took my old doors and put them inside the new club to remember the old club. The count on those doors opening and closing had to be astronomical.

[johnny means]

As long as your stiles are adequately sized, your joints are tight, and your adhesive is good, your cope and stick joints should be good for generations to come. Remember, the structural integrity of your door is the sum of all the joints and the rigidity of the panel. Ibet you could hang a small car off the door handle, if the hinges would hold.

[brent stanley]

Thanks I see it now. Are these intended to remove all the material for a tenon or do they just cut the cope after the bulk of the material has been cut away?

You can do it this way with a lighter and/or lower powered machine, but most tenon discs are designed to remove all the material (including the cope) but for full length tenons on a passageway door, you're talking about a pretty serious machine and the horsepower rating isn't the only factor. Running twin discs is (IMO) the "best" way to make full length tenons on the shaper, BUT is not for a newbie, is not for lighter machines, is not for simple light securing systems, and even if all of those are looked after, you still need a very well tuned and accurately running machine to get satisfactory results. I don't know that much about your machine, but to get 4.5" tenons, you'll be looking at roughly 12" diameter discs and my gut says that machine is too light for that. You're talking pretty serious doors and I wouldn't feel comfortable with anything less than 3" tenons and would personally err on the side of caution and go as along as possible. Once you're set up to run, it isn't really any more work. You could do longer tenons, one side at a time which takes a lot less power but of course takes more care to get your shoulders to line up (though I never had a problem doing it before I got two discs), and though it takes two passes across the shaper to achieve a tenon, sliding it past the cutters doesn't really add up to a lot of time compared to all the other steps involved in creating the doors. I would echo taking Joe's course. You're talking about a great thing to do on a shaper, but it's also one of the most demanding things to do and at par with the most dangerous and Joe's course would get you started down the right path. I would suggest chip limiting tooling is an excellent idea too.

Also, there are many regional and site specific factors (rain, sun exposure, material used etc) that determine how you go about this, but don't underestimate the value of applied mouldings on the outside of doors if you think they may need to be replaced due to forces of nature. In one sense they're a little less sexy than milled in profiles, but in some scenarios the serviceability is valued.

[Jared Sankovich]

You can do it this way with a lighter and/or lower powered machine, but most tenon discs are designed to remove all the material (including the cope) but for full length tenons on a passageway door, you're talking about a pretty serious machine and the horsepower rating isn't the only factor. Running twin discs is (IMO) the "best" way to make full length tenons on the shaper, BUT is not for a newbie, is not for lighter machines, is not for simple light securing systems, and even if all of those are looked after, you still need a very well tuned and accurately running machine to get satisfactory results. I don't know that much about your machine, but to get 4.5" tenons, you'll be looking at roughly 12" diameter discs and my gut says that machine is too light for that. You're talking pretty serious doors and I wouldn't feel comfortable with anything less than 3" tenons and would personally err on the side of caution and go as along as possible. Once you're set up to run, it isn't really any more work. You could do longer tenons, one side at a time which takes a lot less power but of course takes more care to get your shoulders to line up (though I never had a problem doing it before I got two discs), and though it takes two passes across the shaper to achieve a tenon, sliding it past the cutters doesn't really add up to a lot of time compared to all the other steps involved in creating the doors. I would echo taking Joe's course. You're talking about a great thing to do on a shaper, but it's also one of the most demanding things to do and at par with the most dangerous and Joe's course would get you started down the right path. I would suggest chip limiting tooling is an excellent idea too.

Also, there are many regional and site specific factors (rain, sun exposure, material used etc) that determine how you go about this, but don't underestimate the value of applied mouldings on the outside of doors if you think they may need to be replaced due to forces of nature. In one sense they're a little less sexy than milled in profiles, but in some scenarios the serviceability is valued.

The ts29 is one of the 5xx series imports. Same machine as a cantek SS512TB. Bearings are double 6008s on top and a 6206 on the bottom. Cantek tooling size list seems backwards with 8" above or 13" under the table. I'm guessing it's the same 225mm outer ring for all (same as my 511, which I wouldn't run more than a 225mm head on)
Screenshot_20220427-112616_Samsung Notes.jpg

[Kevin Jenness]

Brent makes some good points. I would be comfortable with 2.5" or 3" tenons which can be made with 8" or 9" tenoning discs. Longer than that requires equally deep mortise tooling which may be hard to find. Taking that much material off both sides takes some power and you need the work held securely. I usually use a clamp across the work as well as a hold-down. A continuous fence between the cutters will add safety. If you have any doubts about your setup seek advice from an experienced shaper hand.

[brent stanley]

The ts29 is one of the 5xx series imports. Same machine as a cantek SS512TB. Bearings are double 6008s on top and a 6206 on the bottom. Cantek tooling size list seems backwards with 8" above or 13" under the table. I'm guessing it's the same 225mm outer ring for all (same as my 511, which I wouldn't run more than a 225mm head on)
Screenshot_20220427-112616_Samsung Notes.jpg

Thanks Jared, I was certain it was heavier than a Delta "HD" and more capable but a quick glance at the quill assembly, spindle bottom and 1000lb weight says it's no SCM T160 or Martin T27....and the "best" tooling for the "best" tenons for those doors (ie. twin discs big enough for 5" tenons) is IMHO too much for that machine and certainly too much for the factory clamping system to secure the stock as it goes past the cutters. I would say that two 200mm aluminum tenon discs that will give a 3" tenon could be ok (if you were ok with 3" tenons), provided the OP had some good guidance/instructions and seriously upgraded the securing system/clamp.

B

[Joe Calhoon]

Seems like if the OP already has the Freeborn set he would be better off to put money towards a Domino, slot mortiser or horizontal drill.
No doubt true tenon doors is a better construction but not by much. Reinforcing copes with the other methods mentioned is certainly acceptable and a much easier manufacturing method. To set up true mortise and tenon efficiently for production (AKA making a profit) will be expensive and still require extra steps compared to coping. In exterior door making the corner joint is important but many other issues you need to tackle. Gasketing, glazing install and finishing just to name a few.

My YouTube channel is pretty lame but I have a lot of door making on my Instagram
https://instagram.com/joecalhoon?igshid=NjY2NjE5MzQ=

[Warren Lake]

The discs will cut the tennon and the cope same time. Thats efficient, then you have to mortise the style. They dont have outside knickers so not sure how well that works. Schmidt said they are meant to use in one pass though some make more than one pass or bandsaw off first but they are meant to do it in one pass. Schmidt discs are 25 Degree angle and take corrugated. Past quoted me tennon size for 9" but ive forgotten and at the time he did not look it up to be sure.

Your shaper manual will tell you a maximum size head as well as the RPM. Big heads they want you at the bottom RPM like 2,900. The table rings also have a tale and will limit what you put on depending on what your sliding table set up is or how high. Maybe done to make it more idiot proof.

Some machines have spindle braces. The story changes with those in your benefit. You could probably McGiver a spindle brace from an old power feed base. Ive asked past if anyone has done that with no response

Used Single end tennon machines 5 heads are usually 500.00 - 2,000.00

Ive asked about people using them (the coping discs) and someone posted two people to check, they were on instagram and I havent joined the club so was not able to see things as it asked me to sign up.

[Mitch schiffer]

I'm thinking the route that will be best for me is to get 2 coping discs and still use the standard freeborn cutters. I called and talked to a guy at freeborn today and he said to me that the standard 5/8 tenon is sufficient for most applications and 1" is overkill. I was surprised to hear this especially with almost none of the replies on the thread agreeing with that. I haven't heard back from Charles gg Schmitt yet on getting some coping discs.

[Jim Becker]

Were you clear with the Freeborn person about the size and heft of the doors?

[brent stanley]

I'm thinking the route that will be best for me is to get 2 coping discs and still use the standard freeborn cutters. I called and talked to a guy at freeborn today and he said to me that the standard 5/8 tenon is sufficient for most applications and 1" is overkill. I was surprised to hear this especially with almost none of the replies on the thread agreeing with that. I haven't heard back from Charles gg Schmitt yet on getting some coping discs.

I just reread the description of your doors and they will be very heavy....I would not build them without long traditional or loose tenons.

[Kevin Jenness]

I'm thinking the route that will be best for me is to get 2 coping discs and still use the standard freeborn cutters. I called and talked to a guy at freeborn today and he said to me that the standard 5/8 tenon is sufficient for most applications and 1" is overkill. I was surprised to hear this especially with almost none of the replies on the thread agreeing with that. I haven't heard back from Charles gg Schmitt yet on getting some coping discs.

I'm not clear on your plan. If you mean to do the sticking and coping with the Freeborn set the tenoning discs will not be useful. In that case you can add spline tenons or dowels or rely on the stub tenons. If you want to make integral tenons using the coping discs you will want to get knives ground to match the Freeborn pattern, either with a CAD file from Freeborn or a sample of the sticking supplied to the knife grinder.

Freeborn make good cutters, but they don't make doors. I would take their advice with a grain of salt.

[Mitch schiffer]

Jim i did tell him the size. It seemed like the individual i spoke with was not a woodworker. He told me nobody has ever asked him to extend the tenon length on a entry/passage door set. Seems hard to believe.

[Mitch schiffer]

I'm not clear on your plan. If you mean to do the sticking and coping with the Freeborn set the tenoning discs will not be useful. In that case you can add spline tenons or dowels or rely on the stub tenons. If you want to make integral tenons using the coping discs you will want to get knives ground to match the Freeborn pattern, either with a CAD file from Freeborn or a sample of the sticking supplied to the knife grinder.

Freeborn make good cutters, but they don't make doors. I would take their advice with a grain of salt.

I'm planning on doing all the sticking as well as the coping only for the sub-stlyes with the Freeborn and the coping for the rails with the coping disks. I will cut the mortise in the styles with a hollow chisel mortiser.

[brent stanley]

I'm planning on doing all the sticking as well as the coping only for the sub-stlyes with the Freeborn and the coping for the rails with the coping disks. I will cut the mortise in the styles with a hollow chisel mortiser.

Ok, that's better. You'll have to make sure the knives for the coping discs match the freeborn cutters of course, and they'll need/want some pretty precise measurements to go by, or a sample.