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Thread: Honing after hollow grinding

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Hutchings View Post
    Are you referring to sharpening with the blade 90 degrees to the stone and moving the blade side to side? I like that method as well for plane blades.
    Yes I am. I feel I'm getting the best registration this way.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    When I refer to a micro bevel, I mean a bevel that is very tiny … micro in size. Numbers? 1mm in width, or less.
    Derek
    I'm sorry, but this is actually a milli-bevel. A true micro-bevel could be created on a strop or a felt wheel, the bevel created this way is within 1-3µm and it works wonders.

  3. #18
    "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less."

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    The rounded bevel method has been popularized by Paul Sellers.
    Sorry again, but Paul Sellers doesn't advocate for a rounded bevel, at least not in a sense his audience understands it. He has made at least two posts explaining the confusion. Please also note I'm neither his fan nor an advocate, quite the opposite.

    He is actually reducing a heel. Not sure why, he seems to find some benefit in it (easier hollowing or something). That's the part that is rounded, you can see from the photos he used to post profusely, that his bevels never have a bulge in the middle like his fans do. Instead you will notice that the first half goes up pretty much straight and only then curves down fairly gently. He made a point on several occasions that one should never raise a handle higher than the primary grind angle while sharpening. I believe this makes his method a regular full bevel with this one quirk. It's just people are being people and don't listen to words (which are supposed to mean things).

    I find it revealing that Paul Sellers uses 300/600/1000 grit diamond stones. This suggests that his sharpening method is inefficient. By contrast, many (myself included) begin their sharpening sequence from 1000 grit.
    Are you sure you're not mixing up two different grit scales? ANSI 1000 grit produces a dull mirror finish and it would take you ages to get a burr on a full bevel. A JIS 1000 waterstone is way more aggressive. Also, Paul claims he's using his diamond plates literally for decades, if that's the case they're probably worn to 400-600 ANSI at this point.

    The reason he begins with 300 grit is because he has to remove more steel.
    Again, this is not accurate. His full sharpening protocol starts with 80 grits, an AlO sanding belt on a surface plate. 300 is the starting grit to freshen up a bevel that just started to get dull. I myself also don't do the full progression on a chisel that doesn't have lots of damage.

    I personally think that convex bevel the way most people do it (to stress again, it's not how Paul Sellers does it) has one major downside: eventually the primary angle will get ridiculously high and the bulge right in the middle will turn manual regrinding into a true stoic spiritual practice. It's not a big deal if you don't mind a quick trip to a grinder, but this very crowd rejects grinders because, apparently, it's not "workmanlike" and "manly". A large portion of this crowd will also eventually complain about their tools not cutting clean, but that's a whole different story.

  5. #20
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    The only important thing here is whether you get a highly polished cutting edge or not. You might think you do, but chances are you don't. At least this is the primary issue for friends and buddies reaching out to me for help with sharpening.

    In my opinion this happens because we're doing it blind, essentially. All the sources say "do it like this, then go try cutting something, return to sharpening if it's not sharp". Basically the trial and error method, doesn't work very well for lone autodidact hobbyists, it just takes too long to figure. Microbevels, convex bevels, excentric jig wheels, etc - it's all to make sure the very end is properly ground, sharpened and polished.

    What I personally found useful is a regular x40 jeweler loupe. Get one with a LED and a handle, folding types aren't very convenient to hold. This loupe allows seeing whether all scratches were polished out, any chipping or divots, even remnants of a burr are visible. Eventually you won't be using it that often, maybe every once in a while on a new chisel or a new stone.

    Everything else in my opinion is a matter of a personal preference, like, I don't know what my preference would be today if I have had access to Tormek with a CBN wheel when I was just starting. As long as you're getting clean, shiny, oily looking surfaces from a chisel or a plane - you're good, the shape of the bevel or an edge doesn't matter. I buy lots of second hand tools, actually, only a handful of my tools were purchased new. There were all kinds of bevels, even on tools coming from highly accomplished workers - patternmakers, locally renown cabinetmakers, etc., so many things were "wrong" by today's internet opinion, yet it didn't prevent those guys from turning up first class work.

  6. #21
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    Sorry....I do not hollow grind. I go for a single flat bevel....K.I.S.S. Then right back to work....


    J.A.S.T. (Just Another Sharpening Thread)
    A Planer? I'm the Planer, and this is what I use

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    J.A.S.T. (Just Another Sharpening Thread)
    Funny how it kinda sneaks up on you, doesn’t it?? Haha!

  8. #23
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    I have not read this whole thread... When I have access to a wheel I always hollow grind. I follow up with a strop, a stone, carborundum, or fine sandpaper. When the hollow disappears it is time to re-grind. When I am at work and in a pinch I have found that a brick and some spit will renew an edge. If the tool is hollow ground sharpness happens a lot faster.
    Last edited by Maurice Mcmurry; 04-26-2022 at 9:41 PM. Reason: punctuation & caps
    Best Regards, Maurice

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Dover View Post
    Sorry again, but Paul Sellers doesn't advocate for a rounded bevel, at least not in a sense his audience understands it. He has made at least two posts explaining the confusion. Please also note I'm neither his fan nor an advocate, quite the opposite.

    He is actually reducing a heel. Not sure why, he seems to find some benefit in it (easier hollowing or something). That's the part that is rounded, you can see from the photos he used to post profusely, that his bevels never have a bulge in the middle like his fans do. Instead you will notice that the first half goes up pretty much straight and only then curves down fairly gently. He made a point on several occasions that one should never raise a handle higher than the primary grind angle while sharpening. I believe this makes his method a regular full bevel with this one quirk. It's just people are being people and don't listen to words (which are supposed to mean things).
    This is spot on and exactly how I sharpen on the tools that I do employ a convex grind. It's a big source of confusion when talking about bevel convexity. I never leave a hump in the middle, and will remove such a hump on any tool that crosses my path, be it a chisel or axe.

    This relief on the back actually makes it easier to sharpen and meets with less resistance in the cut, as the heel is out of the way in both instances. A tool with this sort of bevel will cut deeper than a flat grind with any given stroke. It will initially meet more resistance than a hollow grind, but less resistance in very deep cuts, and has the advantage of being somewhat more robust than a hollow grind (hence excellent for axes, and mortise chisels I'm sure).

    Relieving the heel also solves the "stiction" problem that I mentioned before, which occurs between two perfectly flat surfaces suspended in water or oil as when sharpening, and plagues me any time I have a truly perfectly flat bevel.

    I can't stand rounding near the edge or a bulge in the middle even on axes and the like. If I want a higher angle, I just regrind the whole bevel at a higher angle and, again, relieve the heel.
    Last edited by Luke Dupont; 04-27-2022 at 12:21 AM.

  10. #25
    sellers chisel 2012.jpg

    Looks like a high angle to me.

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    Sorry....I do not hollow grind. I go for a single flat bevel....K.I.S.S. Then right back to work....


    J.A.S.T. (Just Another Sharpening Thread)

    +1

    I personally find the whole subject has become quite pretentious. Seems like no matter what you do, you're doing it wrong somehow in someones view, whether it does the job or not.

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Weber View Post
    +1

    I personally find the whole subject has become quite pretentious. Seems like no matter what you do, you're doing it wrong somehow in someones view, whether it does the job or not.
    What else do we have to talk about?

  13. #28
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    Maybe go off on a wild thread about "The Perfect Dovetail".......seems everyone has their own view on that.....
    A Planer? I'm the Planer, and this is what I use

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post

    Looks like a high angle to me.
    Of course it's high, Paul seems to prefer chisels made from Play-Doh: Aldi and Sorby's that are notorious for being under-hardened, etc. He also seems to re-sharpen every 10 mins or so.

    But look where a bevel transitions from flat to rounded. The widest chisel on the right is flat all the way up to 2/3 of the bevel and rounding begins right where the glare is. Same with the leftmost chisel. These actually match Paul's explanations - I could even pull a quote from one of his books. The middle one is actually badly rounded, lol. Seems to be the case of "do what I say, not as I say", happens to the best of us, I guess.

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    Maybe go off on a wild thread about "The Perfect Dovetail".......seems everyone has their own view on that.....
    You start it :-)

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