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Thread: Japanese Planes -- What Am I Doing Wrong?

  1. #1
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    Japanese Planes -- What Am I Doing Wrong?

    Okay, so, I want to start out by saying that I've used Japanese planes a lot.

    The first hand plane that I learned how to use, even, was a little inexpensive Japanese block plane.

    So I've used Japanese planes for many years now, but I have always used my western planes more, and so I've developed more skill with them than I have Japanese planes I suppose.

    Now, with Western planes, I can plane with great confidence and shave down to a specific depth quite straight and consistently, IE, I get a consistently thick shaving across the entire length of the board, and don't have to think about this.

    However, with Japanese planes, I have to be very careful, because if I just take shavings from one end of the board to the other, I consistently wind up with a taper on the piece (meaning that I am taking more material off of one end of the board than the other). This is not so noticeable with just a few shavings, but if I take a bunch of shavings this way, whatever I am doing adds up to create a taper. If you were to look at the shavings individually, they're not apparently thicker on one end than the other, at least not to the naked eye.

    I think it is generally the far end, where I start the shaving, that remains thicker / has less material removed. I haven't been able to discern what it is I am doing that is making this happen, though. The blade does engage and start cutting at the very end, as far as I am aware, and I'm not generally making a "dip" off the end of the board either, as far as I'm aware. Maybe I'm putting more downwards force at the end when it's closer to my body, and this is somehow engaging the iron ever so slightly deeper? I don't know.

    I'm curious if anyone else has found this to occur with Japanese planes, and, more importantly, has any idea why it would.

    I'd like to add that this has occurred with every Japanese plane that I've owned, which has been quite a few. So I don't think it's just a matter of the Dai being off on one particular plane.

    I have a feeling it's to do with the mechanics of starting and ending the cut on the pull stroke, or where the front of the plane is longer than the end of it, and there's just some ever so slight thing that I'm doing wrong with where I place the pressure. Typically, I do as one would with a western plane, placing the pressure on the front when starting, and the end when ending, the cut.
    Last edited by Luke Dupont; 04-24-2022 at 7:33 AM.

  2. #2
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    Embrace your Western European woodworking tradition and dump the Japanese stuff.

    If you use your western planes more, and more effectively, then when/why would you pick up a Japanese plane -- when you feel the need to screw something up? Woodworking is hard enough. You need a go-to kit and that's all. Everything else is a distraction.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Guest View Post
    Embrace your Western European woodworking tradition and dump the Japanese stuff.

    If you use your western planes more, and more effectively, then when/why would you pick up a Japanese plane -- when you feel the need to screw something up? Woodworking is hard enough. You need a go-to kit and that's all. Everything else is a distraction.

    Well, one great reason is that Japanese planes are much more available here. It costs far more to import Western planes.

    I have a few Western planes which are my go to for general work and will remain so, but pretty much all of the specialty planes I have are Japanese (rabbet planes, grooving planes, hollows and rounds, spokeshaves, block planes and baby planes, etc.), and it will likely stay this way as it's just more cost efficient and I already have them and they work! I just need to get a bit better at using them.

    It's just a shame if I'm not skilled at using them when they're so commonly available here and are very good tools.

  4. #4
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    I think it is generally the far end, where I start the shaving, that remains thicker / has less material removed. I haven't been able to discern what it is I am doing that is making this happen, though. The blade does engage and start cutting at the very end, as far as I am aware, and I'm not generally making a "dip" off the end of the board either, as far as I'm aware. Maybe I'm putting more downwards force at the end when it's closer to my body, and this is somehow engaging the iron ever so slightly deeper? I don't know.
    This brings to mind problems some of my planes have had due to the sole not being flat. The planes would cut well with downward pressure but would pop out of the cut as soon as the pressure was released. This is an indication of a cupped or concave sole.

    It sounds like you situation might be the opposite where there is less pressure when the plane is far from your body and more as it gets to the end of your pull.

    My knowledge of using Japanese planes is close to zilch. Is it possible to try pulling the plane toward you by only holding the sides of the plane and applying no downward pressure? This may be a method to indicate if you problem could be caused by the plane's sole flexing or not.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  5. #5
    I have used Japanese planes for over 40 years, and made my first around 1980. I like all planes and make all planes, or restore them. I do think Japanese planes are particularly efficient.

    Do you have this problem with all your Japanese planes? Both jointers and the 2 point contact planes, and one handed planes? Are the soles properly set up. Is the plane properly set up? Normally when they are, people will prefer them to western planes. The problem with Japanese planes is having the confidence to take them on. They are actually pretty predictable, but the techniques for reducing them to a predictable practice do not seem to be widely know. However, assume the planes are properly set up for what follows.

    What you describe seems like poor technique and is a common problem with people who misuse western planes also. The proof is in the piece, you are probably starting the pull with the weak hand and coming off the board with the strong hand, while you want to be doing the opposite. With a western plane this happens because you start on the tote and end up on the knob, while the reverse is the plan. People do it because getting the plane moving off the knob is awkward, particularly if one is pushing down on the knob for registration; and when then come off the end their knob dominance causes them to tip. Of course it is a 60/40 thing, not all on one end of the plane or the other.

    A way to work for a cure with either style of plane is to "always be hollowing".

    Your description raises the question of why are you planing boards from one end to the other, particularly when you are creating longitudinally convex edges? Because we often buy wood from stores where it has already been prepped 6 sides, or we have machine tools that rough out our boards, our planing culture, and textbooks and diagrams, suggest that planing is a process of running planes the full length of boards and then magic happens. We have the same flawed thinking around machine jointers.

    If I were joining up a top for a table. Imagine it will be 4 feet long and assembled from 6 inch boards (so the joints can be sprung). Assume it presents no problems of squareness to the face. I would fix one of these boards to my bench, and place my jointer plane on top of it. While I prefer wooden planes, my dad gave me a Record number 7, and unlike other planes from circa 1980, it actually worked out of the box. I do tend to joint with that plane. So with the plane on top, I used it like a ruler to determine if the board is flat, convex or concave, longitudinally. If it is convex the blade won't catch on the surface, if it is flat, the blade with catch, but the plane will not wiggle. If it is convex, the blade will catch but the ends of the plane will wiggle. Since I want a 1 thou over 22 inches spring in the joint, I will plane it regardless of what I find, and pretty much do the same thing regardless of what surface I find. Let's assume the board is high in the middle.

    THIS IS THE MEAT

    I start planing the middle third only, and when the plane stops catching, I know it has reduced the high point to a concavity of the 1 thou shaving over the length of the plane. Next I hollow out the middle 2 thirds. Finally I world the whole surface except the last inch of either end. The surface simply can't be rendered low at either ends, because I don't come off the ends. Finally I take a pass or two until the whole surface is smooth, very slightly concave, and can be glued up with perfect tension.

    If I want an actual flat surface, I will back out the ends. One develops a known process where having learned to create the sprung joint by a routine, and without any measurement, essential being able to do it with one's eyes closed, one then knows how many strokes one takes to decrease the curve to a straight line. I work either end, then the middle increasing how I come in from the ends, and after a few strokes it will be flat and I will take a finishing pass. This isn't magic, it is a formula based on the shaving thickness you like working with. That determines how concave your sprung edge gets, and how many strokes you need to take, to back it out.

    Going back to the beginning, if your diagnosis with the plane determined the board was concave. You would simply back it out till it was flat. This becomes a process of whack a mole, as every board can be different. Once you get to the point where the board can be treted as flat or high in the middle, you apply the "always be hollowing" process.

    You can set up a practice session where you seesaw back and forth from convex to concave, over an over.

    Of course, boards can have high points and low points, so you just go after those individually, diagnosing on the fly with the plane. One does this by feel, but it is completely mechanical, no magic. High points catch on the blade, work them down. Once you get them about right, you can go back to the hollowing process.

    You can't dub the end of the board, because you do not come off it, for the most part.

    ----------------------------------

    So imagine you have a flat edge on one of these boards, but the board is 6" on one end, and 6.1" on the other. As a beginner, you can draw a line, But basically you back off the high end until it almost reaches the 6". So now you have a convex edge that has it's apex nearer one end than the other. Apply the "always be hollowing" technique to the high point, and you will get to sprung, and go from there. Of course it can be more efficient, if you have a lot of material to remove, to use a jack plane for the initial planing off. Or you may need to trim with a saw.

    -------------------------------

    If the always be hollowing thing is not clear. Get a nice straight board, and start planing only the middle third. Soon the blade sill not be able to catch a shaving. That is what planes do, their default, almost anything else is freehand carving. That is what they are a mold for. People think the jointer super power is that they span unevenness, and reduce the surface. Which they do. But even that is somewhat a freehand process. Once you realize what they do, they become one of the most predictable tools in the shop. And of course other planes work exactly the same, but the jointer is the reference surface where that function really pays off. A molding plane would mostly be following an existing surface, and not rely on the hollowing thing, unless on got into trouble.

    It pays to ask yourself what a tool is a mold for. What it can not, not do. Even simple tools like chisels are a mold. They are doomed to cut how their edge is formed. Straight, curved. Planes are super predictable, once you get that they are a sort of surface gauge based on the blade projection relative to the sole, they are super fun to use.

  6. #6
    While I think your problem is as above, depending on how you cut the wave pattern in the sole, the plane naturally dives when it comes off the end, or when it starts up. If you are using a jointer with 3 point contact. it deals with this a little, as does the greater length. It really isn't an issue if you are doing the general work as in the post above.

    DUMMIES GUIDE TO WAVE PATTERNS

    The easy way to get a working wave pattern. Assume a two point pattern. I have a fallback plane that is on it's second sole and needs it's third. I have all the plane tools, but I think one thing that puts people off Japanese planes (when you consider the wide acceptance of saws, and even chisels), is the act they feel they have to learn a whole bunch of new things, like plane sole scraping planes, just to get started. My go to jack plane is about 11.5" long, 3" wide with a 7 inch infeed. The thing creeps forward as I replace soles. Anyway, with the sole flat. Attach a 4 inch piece of PSA to a reference surface, and place the sole across the stip of paper, and give it enough strokes to relieve between your infeed contact point. Either use a plane, or a the sandpaper to relieve the whole outfeed surface, there is no contact after the plane edge. I once used a router table to relieve this plane. It looked awful, but worked fine. You can use a western cabinet scraper with the grain. At the end you want only about 1/2" on either end of the infeed surface, right up to the blade edge.

    One trick if you are using a sole prep plane, which is used across the grain, is to plane with the grain. Yes, there is a grain when cutting across grain.

    Once you have your reliefs, use your sandpaper reference surface to flatten the remaining raised section. They were presumably already flat, but if you give them a few strokes, they will be perfectly coplaner. You might have to work the hollow again after doing the contact surfaces, but probably not.

    One of those things you hear is that if you sand the sole, you will embed particles that will ruin your blade or the surfaces you are working. Well sure, but that is one of those invented concerns, let me know when it becomes a problem. The good news is you can accumulate fancy Japanese tools for plane prep work, and they are great to have, but they definitely cause more trouble than they solve for someone who wants to use the plane, not move in with it. I have them, but they are not the Dummies path. All this sole work is certainly easier than trying to sand cast iron flat as we used to have to do with Record and Stanley product in the 70s and 80s.

  7. #7
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    Hmm...

    I'll check the soles to make sure they're flat. I'm pretty sure they are. What I usually do is sand or scrape (with cabinet scrapers) a slight hollow and then sand them flat. I usually do 3 points of contact on all of my Japanese planes, just because I don't know the advantage of 2 points of contact and I figured the more the better, especially since I have this problem.

    One experiment that might be worth doing is to push the plane, and see if I create a taper or not. Maybe it's some muscle memory thing that is transferring over from push planes, and causing a bad habit.

    When I pull, I do generally start with my left hand behind the iron, and my right hand gripping the front of the plane. More pressure on the right hand (front) when I start the cut, and more on the left hand (rear) when I end...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roderick Gentry View Post
    Your description raises the question of why are you planing boards from one end to the other, particularly when you are creating longitudinally convex edges? Because we often buy wood from stores where it has already been prepped 6 sides, or we have machine tools that rough out our boards, our planing culture, and textbooks and diagrams, suggest that planing is a process of running planes the full length of boards and then magic happens. We have the same flawed thinking around machine jointers.
    A good point about starting off hollowing!

    However, usually I run into this problem when I am using the plane to reduce the width or thickness of a board. It tends to crop up when I have, say, 1/8" to 1/4" of material to remove from an edge, and decide to use a Japanese plane to do it. It's not so noticeable when just taking a small number of shavings to joint an edge.

    To my knowledge, I am starting the cut as I would on a Western plane, pressure on the front when starting, and back when ending, and aiming to "hollow out the middle" of the piece. But who knows, maybe what I think I'm doing and what I'm actually doing are different in some way.

    I usually prep the sole of my Japanese planes by just sanding and/or them flat on a perfectly flat surface. Hollows are established with either a card scraper or sandpaper, as I don't have any specialized scraping planes.

    I usually go for 3 points of contact rather than 2, because it's not apparent to me the advantage of having just two points of contact, and I figured since I have this problem, the more points, the better. Maybe that logic is faulty, but...

    I'm starting to wonder if, unlike Western planes, I need actually more downwards pressure on the back of the plane (where the blade is) when starting the cut, and maybe my "press down on the front when starting, and on the back when ending" technique, as used with Western planes, needs a bit of modification with Japanese planes. If it is the case that I am too light on the back when starting the cut, and the plane is not engaging as soon or as deep as it should, that could explain my problem. I just recently listened to a podcast on Japanese tools (mentioned in another thread) where he states that you don't really change the downwards pressure from front to back like this when shaving with a Japanese plane, but rather stay consistent throughout the cut. I've not heard this before, but I guess I'll try it and see if it works.
    Last edited by Luke Dupont; 04-24-2022 at 8:24 PM.

  9. #9
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    Luke, Roderick gave a great explanation. I would guess that if you are taking end to end shavings that the taper is starting in the first few strokes and progressing the further you go. Take Roderick’s advice and try planing on the hollow. Some depends on the length of the board and the length of the plane. Shorter the board the shorter the plane needed in general. You can get the exact same result with a western plane depending on technique. Remember that even with a flat sole the edge of the iron is below that plane. You can feel that by setting the plane on a flat surface and it will rock all over and it will cut in the middle of a truly flat board.
    Jim

  10. #10
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    Hmmm... I think this is a mechanics issue, that has to do with when the plane starts and ends on the board.

    I just planed 1/4" off the edge of a few boards with my Japanese planes, but instead of pulling, I pushed them as you would a western plane. And, sure enough, I planed down straight as can be without thinking. No tapering.

    When I pull, it seems to be inconsistent which way the taper goes. I tried a few different ways and got either ascending or descending tapers. But now I am a bit too conscious of what I am doing, so it's hard to observe my original habit. In any case, my results are quite inconsistent.

    Of course, I guess I could fix this by focusing more on the middle and being careful at the ends and checking my work frequently as I go, but I can plane end to end with Western planes perfectly parallel and without thinking, so I feel like I should be able to do the same with Japanese planes...
    Last edited by Luke Dupont; 04-24-2022 at 11:04 PM.

  11. #11
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    If you use western planes perfectly well, why are you hellbent on using Japanese planes? Why be distracted?

    When the Japanese tool craze first started, they foisted absolute junk rejects on the U.S. market and more than a few poor fellows had a bit of a freak out because they just KNEW Japanese tools were going to transform their craft. Don't be one of those guys. Use what you already know how to use.

  12. #12
    Luke, there are several remedies to your problem.

    You could even things out with partial strokes. Take short strokes at the beginning where you want to take more off, then longer strokes still not full length, then full length strokes when things have evened out.

    You could adjust your technique so that when you take full length strokes you are not planing unevenly. I would guess that you are taking too much off at the end of the stroke, not too little at the beginning. Maybe rolling the plane off the end a bit.

    You could alter the plane so that it behaves the way you want or is slightly convex on the soul so you have more freedom to control depth of cut.

    All of these methods will work.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Guest View Post
    If you use western planes perfectly well, why are you hellbent on using Japanese planes? Why be distracted?

    When the Japanese tool craze first started, they foisted absolute junk rejects on the U.S. market and more than a few poor fellows had a bit of a freak out because they just KNEW Japanese tools were going to transform their craft. Don't be one of those guys. Use what you already know how to use.

    My reason is more practical. I live in Japan, and Japanese planes are, as you might guess, extremely plentiful here. By contrast, Western planes are very rare to come by and expensive to import.

    It's a shame if I don't learn to use what is readily available here.
    Last edited by Luke Dupont; 04-25-2022 at 8:35 PM.

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