Bench vs Butt Chisels?

[Mike Henderson]

I bought a set of butt chisels but found that I just never used them. About the only time I could see using them is when a regular bench chisel is too long.

Mike

[Bryan Hall]

Thanks for the tips/thoughts everyone. I'll probably slowly grow a collection with both, and as I start to gravitate towards one or the other then that's where I'll focus.

[Edward Weber]

I personally wouldn't consider it a beginner type of thing.
Choosing a longer chisel is a way of having a longer reference plane to use for alignment. This is simply a method of work that many have adopted.

[Thomas Wilson]

Every chisel becomes a butt chisel if you sharpen it enough.

Tom King is right. By design, butt chisels are specifically for mortising butt hinges. I have one plastic handle Stanley 1 1/2” butt chisel. It was bought as a beater. It is my go-to chisel if there is any chance of hitting metal.

I love bevel edge socket chisels and have sets from several brands. I suppose in my mind I want to test the properties and determine the best one like wood by wright. I use chisels for trimming and fitting. Much of the time the back of the chisel is flat on the surface paring a fine chip. Longer chisels are necessary for this kind of use since the chisel socket must be off the edge of the workpiece. If my chisel is not long enough, I switch to a chisel plane. The hand tools really work well and it is fun.

[James Pallas]

I’m sure that early craftsmen at times needed shorter chisels. There were laminated chisels that had limited length of hardened material so not like today they couldn’t sharpen them way shorter. I know the name butt chisel comes from setting hinge butts. That’s not the only reason for shorter chisels. Lock mortises and sash work come to mind.
Jim

[Warren Mickley]

There were about 50 chisels in the Seaton Chest (1796), all but maybe four apparently purchased at the same time. None are butt chisels. Seaton was a cabinetmaker. The term butt chisel seems to have originated in the late 19th century, well past the handtool era. If someone can find a reference before 1880, I would be interested in seeing it.

When a chisel becomes short after years of use and thousands of sharpenings, I put a longer handle on to bring it back to an optimum length.

[Roderick Gentry]

All true!

The only bit I don't get is "And a lot of the best users work off the bevel not the back for most of their cuts." I'm curious to know what you mean, as I generally use bevel down for inside curves / convex work and long dados, etc., and flat down for flat work / convex ... Do you have any specific examples of what you mean?

I don't fully get it myself, but I noticed while working at a seminar, with some Japan trained carpenters, both Western and Japanese, that things I did with the back, they did with the bevel. I really didn't get to watch them long enough to see why they did it. And question were pointless. There could be a lot of reasons: Allows better view. So while some people are saying the longer chisel gets them a better reference or feel, the view is not always the best; Better body position relative to body position on the work; Dynamics in the work, so which way the cut biases; Striking angle, one thing you do see is huge power when hitting that chisel, like they are building a railway. If you are controlling, and crowding the work you can't really hit for the bleachers. This was rectilinear work nto following a curve. I just started to switch it around, I would try one way, then the other, and just see what I liked. It is not a prying thing

[Roderick Gentry]

I personally wouldn't consider it a beginner type of thing.
Choosing a longer chisel is a way of having a longer reference plane to use for alignment. This is simply a method of work that many have adopted.

I don't mean to suggest that one way of working is right or wrong. I throw in beginner mind at times not to insult, I am still a beginner after 40 or 50 years. Not just something one says to be modest. I don't bother with certain aspects of woodwork, and could be better at what I do, and have lots of things I am bad at.

Beginner mind is a lot of things, but probably the easiest to spot is anything along the lines of "it is easier to..." So one has a "longer reference". If I can cut to the line with either method, why would I care. Catalogs will advertise this as an advantage, longer chisels for a longer reference.

I just tried this. I went out to the shop and took a clean but nasty piece of 1" spruce construction lumber. I put it in the vise and marked it across the top and down about 2 inches. I took a saw, and aligned myself to the cut line. I closed my eyes and moved my hand up and down and back to the line. I checked to see if I was on the line. And made an adjustment. I started sawing on the line, and once I got the saw going smoothly (before the teeth were fully buried) I closed my eyes and sawed the rest of the line. First time the saw was actually binding and the kerf was off the line about 1/64th. Second time better but still off. Third time I actually got the saw moving smoothly almost full length of the blade and it was perfect. I have never tried this. Try it and see how it goes. What I know from past experience is I can saw perfectly to a line with my eyes open. Apparently it can be done with eyes closed. I could not even get my feet in proper positions because the panels for a speed boat are leaning on the front of the bench.

What I am getting at is the idea that there is a technical solution that will make something easier enough that I can do it, is what I call beginner mind. The idea that I would need that crutch to do it, is also beginner mind. Far better to push a little further and own the skill.

I hope beginner mind isn't insulting. Once you look for it you will see it everywhere. I am as victim to it as anyone. And sometimes I just want to buy the longer chisels, and I have.

[James Pallas]

What is a butt chisel anyway? Shorter seems to be the answer. The Stanley 700 series were different lengths, the 750 being the shorter. The 750, according to my understanding, was marketed as a butt chisel as boxes were marked that way. I don’t think the 750s are considered as butt chisels today.
Jim

[Luke Dupont]

I don't fully get it myself, but I noticed while working at a seminar, with some Japan trained carpenters, both Western and Japanese, that things I did with the back, they did with the bevel. I really didn't get to watch them long enough to see why they did it. And question were pointless. There could be a lot of reasons: Allows better view. So while some people are saying the longer chisel gets them a better reference or feel, the view is not always the best; Better body position relative to body position on the work; Dynamics in the work, so which way the cut biases; Striking angle, one thing you do see is huge power when hitting that chisel, like they are building a railway. If you are controlling, and crowding the work you can't really hit for the bleachers. This was rectilinear work nto following a curve. I just started to switch it around, I would try one way, then the other, and just see what I liked. It is not a prying thing

Interesting. It would be hard to say why they were doing what they were doing without actually seeing it and/or asking them.
I've watched Japanese woodworkers a good bit, but I'm definitely not an expert (as my recent post regarding Japanese planes should make very evident). But as far as I have seen, I haven't seen them using chisels in any particularly weird manner.

But then, it depends on the craftsman to. Some people have particular, and quite unconventional methods that work well for them. One example of this is a particular professional Japanese knife sharpener that I know of, who actually sharpens primarily using the corner of the whetstone, rather than the entire flat surface! That's definitely not standard practice in Japan, but I guess it's not "wrong" either... Unless you ask any other professional sharpener, who will probably all insist that their way is correct. lol

[Don Dorn]

For me, it's butt for dovetails and Marples (and two wide Narex) for everything else

[Edward Weber]

I don't mean to suggest that one way of working is right or wrong. I throw in beginner mind at times not to insult, I am still a beginner after 40 or 50 years. Not just something one says to be modest. I don't bother with certain aspects of woodwork, and could be better at what I do, and have lots of things I am bad at.

Beginner mind is a lot of things, but probably the easiest to spot is anything along the lines of "it is easier to..." So one has a "longer reference". If I can cut to the line with either method, why would I care. Catalogs will advertise this as an advantage, longer chisels for a longer reference.

I just tried this. I went out to the shop and took a clean but nasty piece of 1" spruce construction lumber. I put it in the vise and marked it across the top and down about 2 inches. I took a saw, and aligned myself to the cut line. I closed my eyes and moved my hand up and down and back to the line. I checked to see if I was on the line. And made an adjustment. I started sawing on the line, and once I got the saw going smoothly (before the teeth were fully buried) I closed my eyes and sawed the rest of the line. First time the saw was actually binding and the kerf was off the line about 1/64th. Second time better but still off. Third time I actually got the saw moving smoothly almost full length of the blade and it was perfect. I have never tried this. Try it and see how it goes. What I know from past experience is I can saw perfectly to a line with my eyes open. Apparently it can be done with eyes closed. I could not even get my feet in proper positions because the panels for a speed boat are leaning on the front of the bench.

What I am getting at is the idea that there is a technical solution that will make something easier enough that I can do it, is what I call beginner mind. The idea that I would need that crutch to do it, is also beginner mind. Far better to push a little further and own the skill.

I hope beginner mind isn't insulting. Once you look for it you will see it everywhere. I am as victim to it as anyone. And sometimes I just want to buy the longer chisels, and I have.

Using a longer chisel or fence or table isn't just a preference or a crutch, it's geometry.
If I want to level a 20' wall, I don't use a 6" level. If I'm trying to square a door frame, I don't use a 3" pocket square. The longer the reference or sight line, the greater the accuracy that can be achieved. You seem to say this is just a beginner mind thing that can be overcome with more practice, to a degree yes but there's no getting around that the longer the reference surface or sight line, the more accurate one can be.

I suppose I find it a strange phrase, I find it more confusing than insulting.

[Tom M King]

I don't even like pig sticker mortise chisels. I like them long.

[Charles Guest]

The problem with forums is that it's hard to tease out if we're hearing from people who spend an entire weekend laying out and chopping four mortises, regardless of chisel length, or somebody who could knock out a typical, and creditable, furniture sized mortise (legs, frames, etc.) in three to five minutes with a sharpened screwdriver if they had to.

Whatever one is able to use accurately, and relatively quickly, is what that particular person should use in the long run.

If you're flummoxed and ineffective with short or long, it's you, not the tool.

You can study rotogravure images all you want. It won't make you a woodworker. You may end of with the toolkit of one, all the trappings, but that's about .05% of the whole thing.

[mike stenson]

There's no denying, at all, that a longer reference makes it easier to spot small variations though. That seems a ridiculous 'hill to die on' to me.