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Thread: Easy add quick connect collets or changers to an existing CNC

  1. #16
    David, thanks for the wealth of information, definitely doing some research as a quick tool change would be really advantageous for me.

    Gary, could you explain a bit further about this CNC Depot/Acorn/ClearPath situation? What does a clear path servo have to do with the tool changer? Or are we talking a whole complete control system for the axis motors, spindle, Acorn and Toolchanger?
    Brian Lamb
    Lamb Tool Works, Custom tools for woodworkers
    Equipment: Felder KF700 and AD741, Milltronics CNC Mill, Universal Laser X-600

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Lamb View Post
    David, thanks for the wealth of information, definitely doing some research as a quick tool change would be really advantageous for me.

    Gary, could you explain a bit further about this CNC Depot/Acorn/ClearPath situation? What does a clear path servo have to do with the tool changer? Or are we talking a whole complete control system for the axis motors, spindle, Acorn and Toolchanger?
    Brian...
    It's simply a package that CNC Depot is investigating. That's about all I can say about it at this time. The real answer is that no one in the know sets up an ATC without servos, or at least closed loop steppers. I realize that the DIY world disagrees with "those in the know" due to cost reasons.

    I have been developing an AcornSIX controller for a while now that implements many more IO features than most sub $100k OEM ATC machines use and exponentially more than the DIY crowd does. I am working on combining a small standalone PLC and some gray logic to handle a dozen or more monitoring inputs from the VFD, spindle and servos into the few that Acorn4 has available. The attempt is to make it both bullet proof and idiot proof. I realize neither are attainable.
    Gary Campbell
    CNC Replacement & Upgrade Controllers
    Custom 9012 Centroid ATC

  3. #18
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    I wrote a reply and I guess it didn’t go through.

    I like the muscle chuck idea, but I guess it doesn’t solve the deterministic Z height issue I was thinking of in the first place. Somehow I forgot, I’ve never setup my Auto Z plate, so I think that’s going to be my first task. I guess I got so used to manually 0’ing out my setup that it became a habit. I just pulled the Auto Z out of the closet and will see if I can get it going today.

    David,

    That ATC is much more appealing in cost. I figure I can get ~1k for my current spindle, so spending 2k (net 1k) is much more reasonable. Not something I’m going to do right away, but this is atleast feasible (unlike 6k for the CNC Depot model).

    I also run Centroid on my Avid setup. I went with Centroid from Day 1, so I have no clue what I’m missing from Mach 4, but if I do go this route I’ll see what you’ve done by then.

  4. #19
    I got it, you are talking a complete system, spindle, servos, Acorn and such. Yes, I understand the need for servos or some sort of closed loop system for tool changes, you need to be able to accurately get back to the tool pots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Campbell View Post
    Brian...
    It's simply a package that CNC Depot is investigating. That's about all I can say about it at this time. The real answer is that no one in the know sets up an ATC without servos, or at least closed loop steppers. I realize that the DIY world disagrees with "those in the know" due to cost reasons.

    I have been developing an AcornSIX controller for a while now that implements many more IO features than most sub $100k OEM ATC machines use and exponentially more than the DIY crowd does. I am working on combining a small standalone PLC and some gray logic to handle a dozen or more monitoring inputs from the VFD, spindle and servos into the few that Acorn4 has available. The attempt is to make it both bullet proof and idiot proof. I realize neither are attainable.
    Brian Lamb
    Lamb Tool Works, Custom tools for woodworkers
    Equipment: Felder KF700 and AD741, Milltronics CNC Mill, Universal Laser X-600

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Campbell View Post
    David, etal.....
    In the next couple months I will be working with the Centroid software development team to build/improve the Router ATC program. Actually it doesnt really need improvement in function, just form. We will be bringing the ATC function variables and settings, along with the required macros into the Wizard to make it much easier for the DIY crowd, like yourself to build a working ATC systems on routers be as elegant and full featured as the Mill and lathe versions.

    Also, and in the same timespan, CNCDepot should be releasing an Acorn based ATC controller for Teknic ClearPath servos that we have co-developed. This will be an all in one control with the VFD, all pneumatics on board, and a custom screen with all ATC functions on screen buttons.

    If you hang on (or procrastinate) a bit, your ATC setup may become much easier.

    Very interesting. I *think* I have some of these bits already as I bought one of your kits. Wonder if I could upgrade the spindle when available to make a ATC.

  6. #21
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    Ben...
    If you send me the serial number of the controller that you have I can tell you what your upgrade options are.

    You can send it to my email: gcnc411@gmail.com
    Gary Campbell
    CNC Replacement & Upgrade Controllers
    Custom 9012 Centroid ATC

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Campbell View Post
    David, etal.....
    In the next couple months I will be working with the Centroid software development team to build/improve the Router ATC program. Actually it doesnt really need improvement in function, just form. We will be bringing the ATC function variables and settings, along with the required macros into the Wizard to make it much easier for the DIY crowd, like yourself to build a working ATC systems on routers be as elegant and full featured as the Mill and lathe versions.
    Gary - will this be a software update/patch for existing CNC12 users, or a new updated version of CNC12? What is the upgrade cost for existing CNC12 users?
    Thanks,
    David

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Grefe View Post
    I wrote a reply and I guess it didn’t go through.

    I like the muscle chuck idea, but I guess it doesn’t solve the deterministic Z height issue I was thinking of in the first place. Somehow I forgot, I’ve never setup my Auto Z plate, so I think that’s going to be my first task. I guess I got so used to manually 0’ing out my setup that it became a habit. I just pulled the Auto Z out of the closet and will see if I can get it going today.
    Ben - I use the Avid Auto Z and Corner Finding Touch Plate for setting the tool height on my Avid Pro4848 router table and it works great. That machine uses the Avid 3hp air cooled spindle motor with removable collets. The only thing I don't like is the actual process for removing and replacing the cutting tool using wrenches to loosen and tighten the collet/spindle nuts every time. I am using Mach3, which is what came with the table at the time - and I have no complaints (about Mach3) for the occasional work that I do with that table.

    But it would be nice to have the ATC spindle on that table, just for the convenience of being able to simply push a button to pop out the tool holder/tool and pop in a new one. Of course if I were to keep track of the different tool holder/bit combinations and record the cut height for each one and put into a tool table, then I could forego the need to use the touch plate on every tool change.

    So for me - just having that capability (manual tool change using ATC spindle) would be far more important that having a fully automatic tool changer.

    David

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Lamb View Post
    I got it, you are talking a complete system, spindle, servos, Acorn and such. Yes, I understand the need for servos or some sort of closed loop system for tool changes, you need to be able to accurately get back to the tool pots.
    Brian,

    My personal feeling is the for "diy hobby use" open loop steppers may be perfectly fine - as long as the system doesn't loose steps or stall one of the motors. I feel that my Avid Pro4824 with large size Nema 34 motors and Centroid control will be adequate for my needs. And - yes - I certainly consider my table to be of the "hobby" variety. Avid table and motors, Centroid controller, water cooled ATC spindle, diy tool change rack, and so on. I am actually planning to use this particular machine to machine smaller aluminum parts. I don't particularly need the full ATC tool changer system, but this came about as more of a personal challenge back when Bobby Milam was doing something similar and we were comparing notes and exchanging ideas about our systems.

    The machines I use for production work do have fully functional ATC, servos with closed loop feedback, etc. My Matsuura machining center uses BT35 tool holders with a 20 tool magazine, 5HP spindle motor, and runs from 240V 3-phase power. Same for my Nakamura Slant 1 turning center, except only a 12 tool magazine and a different type of tool holder.

    I believe that for my Avid table, I will be able to accurately get back to the tool pots using open loop steppers. And actually, the tool forks do have some flexibility and do provide a sort of "buffer" to accommodate minor misalignment of the spindle with the tool holder during tool change.

    David

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Lamb View Post
    You can get ER20 and ER25 collets that are solid and you heat shrink the tool into them. Becomes kind of a quasi-quick change set up, they can tend to be a pit pricey, $100 or so per holder, but if you only need two or three, it might be worth it. Made by Iscar, by the way. Let's see if I can add a picture:
    Brian - I'm not sure I quite understand how these work. How are these retained into the spindle, and what is the function of the tapered end? Are the collet wrenches still required to remove and replace? Which end does the tool bit get heat shrinked into? Perhaps you could provide a photo or two showing one of these in use.
    Thanks,
    David

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Grass View Post
    One other little annoying detail about shrink fit. The cutter has to be solid carbide for the expansion differential to work. And the tolerances of diameter are tiny. The smaller the shank, the smaller the tolerance. Little chance a steel shank brazed carbide 'router bit' will go in and be held properly. And if it does, you probably won't ever get it out without boring the remnants to foil and peeling it out with a scribe.

    Air cylinders? What's wrong with a chunk of cast iron suspended by chain and sprockets like my Fadal? ;-)
    Wes - I am assuming that your Fadal is a cnc mill similar to my Matsuura. On my Matsuura, the spindle only moves up and down (Z direction) and there is no X-Y motion. Mine does have a very large counter weight with two chains to counterbalance the weight of the spindle. The table moves in the x and y directions under program control such that the part being machined passes under the rotating cutting tool in the spindle.

    By contrast, the cnc router table in question has a fixed table and the spindle moves back and forth along the gantry (x direction). Also - the gantry moves back and forth along the Y axis. These can often times be very rapid moves, and adding an additional 25 to 30 lbs hanging off the back of the z bracket could most certainly be problematic. An air cylinder is much lighter weight and can mimic the function of the counterweight while not becoming a hindrance to efficient spindle xy motion.

    David

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Buchhauser View Post
    Brian,

    My personal feeling is the for "diy hobby use" open loop steppers may be perfectly fine - as long as the system doesn't loose steps or stall one of the motors.
    I think that the concern with using base level steppers with an ATC comes down to the fact that an ATC demands "hard precision" to insure that the tools are installed and uninstalled accurately...it could even be a safety issue if you think about it. Will they work? Yes, and if there are no missed steps, etc., no problem. But given the cost of an ATC, the cost for better quality motors probably is worth it, IMHO.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    I think that the concern with using base level steppers with an ATC comes down to the fact that an ATC demands "hard precision" to insure that the tools are installed and uninstalled accurately...
    Jim I think this depends on the particular mounting arrangement for the tool forks, and the rigidity (or lack of) of the forks. I don't know about "hard precision" and what that really means. Agreed that in a perfect world active closed loop feedback would be used. My Plasmacam table uses servos with encoders for feedback, but of course no ATC. I take Gary's point, but there is a difference (in my opinion) between diy hobby and pro stuff. In any case, I fully expect my Avid with ATC and tool changer to perform reliably once set up and properly calibrated. Opinions may differ.

    David

  14. #29
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    My feeling is that when you start to get into things like ATC, the difference between "hobby" and "pro" blur substantially. But that's me...
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  15. #30
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    "Gary - will this be a software update/patch for existing CNC12 users, or a new updated version of CNC12? What is the upgrade cost for existing CNC12 users?
    Thanks,
    David"


    David...
    As far as I know, this is just a part of the natural evolution of Centroid's product development. "Ongoing improvements to CNC-12's Router Pro version" I do not know if there will be any additional cost. I doubt it.

    "I got it, you are talking a complete system, spindle, servos, Acorn and such. Yes, I understand the need for servos or some sort of closed loop system for tool changes, you need to be able to accurately get back to the tool pots." ~Brian
    Brian...
    Yes, if it comes to fruition, a full Acorn/ClearPath/ATC package for AVID machines will be offered by them. Pre-setup, pre programmed, right down to having appropriate "auto-tune" profiles installed in the motors. I have been building a similar system for ShopBot ATC machines for a while now and am looking forward to possibly gaining some of the AVID customer base.

    AVID has become popular with the "move up" crowd. IOW, they are experienced and after some years of use they know what they want in a machine, and are willing to put in the labor to get it. We are working on a new swing plate design that will allow adding planetary gearboxes to the AVID Pro kits to enable reduction ratios more conducive to servo use. The stock ~3-3.2:1 reduction ratios are just too low in my opinion.
    Gary Campbell
    CNC Replacement & Upgrade Controllers
    Custom 9012 Centroid ATC

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