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Thread: Shaper cutter selection assistance needed

  1. #1

    Shaper cutter selection assistance needed

    I'm in the process of acquiring an SCM T120c shaper. Thinking of starting with a Whitehill combi head, adjustable groover, and spiral head. The selection of profiles and cutters seems a little bewildering, and would like some input on initial cutters to start with.

    There seems to be a lot of overlap with other tools in the workshop, there are situations where I'm not quite sure if getting the equivalent shaper cutter makes sense. For example, the table saw can do grooves, dados, rabbits, etc. Likewise, a handheld router can be fitted with a flush cut trim bit, as well as round over/bevels etc. For the shaper, I see many interesting cutters such as mitre locks glue line, finger joints, etc. I'm not sure where the set up time and efficiency comes in compared to other tools in the shop. When and where does the shaper enter your workflow?

    Would like to branch out into furniture builds; tables, consoles, chairs, template profiling and the like. Not so much production stuff like molding, doors, etc.

    Any input/experience you guys have would be much appreciated. Thanks!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    MA
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    2,255
    I look forward to hearing experience of the professionals here. I am a hobby guy. Where I use the shaper:

    Edge dado with the groover. In fact, I had a thumb surgery many years ago putting a dado in the edge of a board to fit a panel (tablesaw). For me this is a pretty common operation and the shaper/groover works beautifully. Get a groover that can cut the range of width you want.

    Rabbet. Your spiral rabbeting cutter should work for this. Simple setup, smooth finish.

    Profiling. Just depends if you have the bit you want.

    Door making cutters. I already had some for the router table and stick with those. The depth of cut on the router bit sets might not be as deep as on a shaper, that would be an advantage.

    Tongue and groove. A simple door/panel making use. This one gets used for the same reason as the groover.

    Lock miter. I have done this on the router table since I work mostly with smaller/thinner stock. I wouldnt mind picking up a lock miter for the shaper because I think it may behave and cut more smoothly. But it needs to be a design for relatively thinner stock (say, 3/8 to 1" range). Most of the lock miter bits I see do not handle thin material. So havent pulled the trigger on that. (a lot of people do not feel a lock miter is needed - so maybe a simple 45 miter cutter or one of the profile blades for this)

    I wonder about a rub collar for your spiral head. Might be good for template work. If you feel like hand feeding...

    Are you getting a feeder? Seems critical if doing much at all on the shaper.

    Again hobby user and by no means an expert.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Toronto Ontario
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    11,247
    Like Carl, I’m a hobby user.

    I always suggest hobby users start with the following

    1) a rebate head, often 125 X 50 mm. You can rebate, cut tenons and with a guide ring set (ball bearing collar) pattern copy

    2) an adjustable groover, I started with the dado set from the saw (in my case 30 mm bore) and added a 4 to 7.5 mm groover for thinner veneered plywood later.

    3) a method of making profiles, most commonly a Euroblock head that takes 40/50 mm knives and limiters. The knives come in a wide array of profiles, available everywhere. Whitehill sell a combi head that does items 1 and 3,

    That does 90% of everything you’ll want to do.

    I do have a lock mitre cutter, used for Stickley style legs, and a larger groover that can also be inverted to cut both cheeks of a tenon in one pass, and a set of glue joint knives for item 3, although rarely used.

    I have other cutters, only add what you need.

    You’re probably going to want a curve guard for pattern shaping, maybe a tenon hood and table and definitely a power feeder.

    You’ll find the shaper more accurate, more productive and safer than the router due to size, cutter diameter and geometry as well as superior guarding and the ability to use a feeder.

    A really useful accessory is an outboard fence, used with the feeder it can profile and dimension in one pass…..

    Also buy The Spindle Moulder Handbook by Eric Stephenson, it’s the only modern book I’ve found, all the others are decades out of date…Rod.
    Last edited by Rod Sheridan; 04-15-2022 at 7:25 AM.

  4. #4
    A friend who spends thousands on tooling every month (conventional and cnc) recommended Whitehill to me, and I now have five of there cutter blocks and quite a few 55 mm inserts. You are on the right track there…Whitehill cutters are made of very good steel and thick.

    They also make many profiles in carbide, and probably would make any profile as a custom job. I had them make special knives for me, but in steel. They were very good to work with for a company that ships 10,000 inserts a month.

    I am a hobbyist too, but now have a seperate spindle moulder as well as my combination machine. My router table now sits unloved in a corner with its back to the room.

    I would really prioritise a power feeder.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Alberta
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    2,162
    I consider a shaper without a power feeder only half of the machine. Rod's advice on tooling is excellent as is the book he recommends. Shaper tooling gets very expensive fast so I would just buy what you need as you need it after the basic set up.

  6. #6
    I agree with Rod for initial tooling. You’re going to want to go with everything 1 1/4” bore. I’m sure Brent will be along at some point with more specifics, but i think you can use the combi head like a rabbeting block if you’re trying to stretch the budget initially and do double duty with some of the tooling. Likewise, as Rod mentioned, with certain adjustable groover as you can flip them inside out and have them for tenoning both cheeks in a single pass like mini tenoning discs.

    I’m still pretty new to shapers and acquiring tooling over the last year but I started with an Amana 125x50 steel rabbeting block with shear carbide/knickers, then got a Whitehill 4-15mm adjustable groover, and recently picked up a CGG Schmidt 4”x4” carbide Spiral head with matching bearing for pattern/flush cutting. The cost of those 3 pieces of tooling has exceeded the shaper/feeder cost at this point, which is the name of the game. The quality of cut and longevity of cutter life is phenomenal and the efficiency and safety of running parts and pieces with a feeder or by hand with MAN rated tooling is incomparable to a router table setup IMO. My next tooling investment will likely be some sort of head that can support stock and custom profiles - either corrugated or a Euro block style that can accept profiled knives. I don’t really do much/any profiled work but it would be nice to have as an option should it come up.

    Pretty sure the machine has a nice feeder on it, which is a big deal. Happy to hear that you’re going after that machine. It should serve you well.
    Still waters run deep.

  7. #7
    Best thing I did after a major investment in a Felder F900z, was to go to an Alpine Workshop class on advanced shaper joinery. You will get hands-on experience with many types of cutters, with an emphasis on Rangate tooling, as they sponsor/administer the classes. Spendy, yes, but impeccable results with proper setup.

    Regardless of brand, here's what I learned: with a machine of the caliber like the Felder or SCM that you've got ordered, you want BIG stuff. These machines are scaled for 4-10" diameter cutters, and when you chuck a small little Amana or Grizzly 3", it's almost too small. Every time I chuck up a small, econo-shaper cutter, it is rougher, louder, more chatter, even with these bigger shapers. Smoothness of cut is most notable difference with the big cutter heads. You can easily have as much invested in these cutter heads as the machine itself, but once you experience the difference, you'll understand completely.
    Cannot stress enough, as you enter into large-scale molding machinery like this, some time in a pro shop, via classes or otherwise, is almost the only way to get a true picture of the level of performance you're now dealing with, and you'll find yourself staying off the router table as much as possible. Not the same as tooling up with a router table and couple hundred bucks worth of bits - you can get instruction everywhere you look for this mainstream approach to woodworking, but you just bought into commercial-level stuff, and it is quite a different world. In a very good way. (just not cheap!)

    Good luck!
    Jeff

  8. #8
    All the advice above is good, especially on the Stephenson book and the importance of a powerfeed. Curved work can often be done more safely using a powerfeed with one wheel.

    The shaper excels at pattern work but it is a very versatile machine - also potentially a very dangerous one. In-person instruction from an experienced user is very helpful. One shop I worked at used to have a rule that shaper setups be checked by a second person. It is always a good idea to check that cutter position, fences, guards and powerfeed settings are all locked down before startup.

    The best miter lock cutter I have seen is the Freeborn design which allows for running all the parts on the flat at one setting plus a dado on the tablesaw. Running parts on edge, especially wide or long ones, is fraught. The Freeborn set is limited to 3/4" - 1 1/8" thickness, though. I more often use a simple miterfold but there are situations where a lock miter is preferable.

    For large profiles a corrugated back cutterhead is very useful. For pattern cutting you will want a bearing the same diameter as your cutter. You will find that cutters can easily overtake the machine investment. Buy as needed. For production insert cutters will pay off, especially where maintaining diameter is important but brazed cutters are reliable and less expensive up front.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2013
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    Northern Virginia
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    +2 or is it +3 on the adjustable groover, rebate block and 40mm euro block.

    +2 on corrugated heads for any custom profiles.

  10. #10
    All: it comes with what looks like a 1hp Europa v8 power feeder.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
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    Western PA
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    1,242
    I assume your T120 has a 1-1/4" spindle, or is it 30mm? I think there are two school's of thought on tooling. Buy as you need, or lurk around for used tooling at a screaming deal. I chose the latter for my 1-1/4" spindle on my Felder 700, and i spent a few months combing craigslist and marketplace before i found some guy unloading a ton of tooling. I think he picked it up at an auction and didnt really know what he was selling. I purchased about 125lbs of cutterheads for $700-800 and shipped them in multiple boxes to PA. I sold half for more than that and kept the other half. It is why i have steel body cope and stick sets for 4-5 different profiles, multiple raised panel profiles, rebate blocks etc. New insert cutters are $50ish for each cutterhead, and they will more than likely last me the rest of my hobbyist lifetime. Eventually the insert cutterhead bodies do wear out, but that is not within my usage. Over the years i purchased a used spiral insert head with rub bearing and used Felder euro block as they came along. My last piece of the puzzle would be two sets of adjustable groovers for 1/4" up to 3/4". This tooling overlaps with a a dado set in a table saw, but if you had your choice, the shaper is a lot nicer for some operations. This is where i am at currently, because do i really want to spend $1,000+ on groover sets when i can technically achieve the same result on one of two table saws, albeit, in a slightly more uncomfortable and less safe manner. I can tell you from experience used groover sets are RARE on the used market. They do come up for sale, but they are rarely discounted more than 20%.

    My shaper is a combo machine, so i really only use the shaper for template work and cope/stick or tongue/groove operations. I have a comatic dc40 feeder, and its excellent, but i am not as firm of a believer of "you have to have a feeder for a shaper". Feeders arent fool proof. I once had to shut down an operation at an alarming rate when my incorrect setup of the feeder allowed the work piece to begin to turn sideways and dip into the cutterhead. In other words, kind of a nightmare scenario. Thankfully, i shut things down half a second after i saw what was about to happen. Its also kind of a PITA to lift my feeder into place and get it setup correctly. I often hand feed parts when i only have a dozen to shape. As your confidence grows, it isnt dangerous or nerve-wracking. If you are worried, i recommend making a false-fence/zero clearance fence face. This simple jig makes the machine very safe for handfeeding profiles. Thats my opinion, if you are strapped for cash i would spend the money on cutters before $1,000+ on a feeder and waiting on future cutterheads.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Crivello View Post
    I'm in the process of acquiring an SCM T120c shaper. Thinking of starting with a Whitehill combi head, adjustable groover, and spiral head. The selection of profiles and cutters seems a little bewildering, and would like some input on initial cutters to start with.

    There seems to be a lot of overlap with other tools in the workshop, there are situations where I'm not quite sure if getting the equivalent shaper cutter makes sense. For example, the table saw can do grooves, dados, rabbits, etc. Likewise, a handheld router can be fitted with a flush cut trim bit, as well as round over/bevels etc. For the shaper, I see many interesting cutters such as mitre locks glue line, finger joints, etc. I'm not sure where the set up time and efficiency comes in compared to other tools in the shop. When and where does the shaper enter your workflow?

    Would like to branch out into furniture builds; tables, consoles, chairs, template profiling and the like. Not so much production stuff like molding, doors, etc.

    Any input/experience you guys have would be much appreciated. Thanks!

    Hi Nick, you're going to love your shaper! I'm associated with Whitehill so ask me any questions you might have. That said, 95% of my time is spent making sawdust for a living and I use this stuff all the time. I don't hesitate to suggest the combi to smaller commercial shops (depending on how much of what they do) and certainly hobbyists. There have been a few situations where I wished I had separate blocks, but not enough to get a dedicated rebate block yet. It helps that I have a big combi for the big machine, and a small one for both but I think very heavy shaper users where time is critical might go the separate block route. The nice thing about the combi is it is zero compromise in terms of performance.

    I would try the combi head for pattern shaping before you get a spiral, as you may well find the cut quality more than good enough. I am making arched rails now and sent a picture of fluffy shavings you could see through to a friend from milling the rebate. Depending on the pattern milling you're doing, you may find the block has too large a diameter though. A set of bearings is nice, but a ring fence is very versatile and if I could pick only one it would be the ring fence I think.

    The best English language book on shapers is by Eric Stephenson and when you start going through it, it will blow your mind how much you can do. As soon as I got my first shaper, I stopped using the router table almost entirely as it just wasn't as enjoyable to use, nor did it give results as good. I have not done a rebate with the table saw since, or a groove near an edge and I use the shaper to bring boards down to final width using a back fence and the list goes on...

    You might find setting yourself up to tenon on the shaper helpful too, just looking at the list of things you are going to get up to, though it might require additional investment.

    Regardless of where you go, I do suggest MAN rated tooling which is designed for low kickback potential and won't autofeed your hand if the worst happens. Corrugated blocks are very handy and practical and though many folks don't realize it, they are available in limiting style too.

    Keith doesn't mind if I answer Whitehill questions here, but feel free to PM me if you prefer.

    B

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    531
    You will love your SCM shaper. I have a TI145EP. The shaper will always give you better finish than router. You need to get yourself a feeder. I am still learning as well.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by brent stanley View Post
    Hi Nick, you're going to love your shaper! I'm associated with Whitehill so ask me any questions you might have.
    Brent,

    I'm reading your post with great curiosity; since you offered, I do have a few questions to ask

    That said, 95% of my time is spent making sawdust for a living and I use this stuff all the time. I don't hesitate to suggest the combi to smaller commercial shops (depending on how much of what they do) and certainly hobbyists. There have been a few situations where I wished I had separate blocks, but not enough to get a dedicated rebate block yet. It helps that I have a big combi for the big machine, and a small one for both but I think very heavy shaper users where time is critical might go the separate block route. The nice thing about the combi is it is zero compromise in terms of performance.

    I would try the combi head for pattern shaping before you get a spiral, as you may well find the cut quality more than good enough. I am making arched rails now and sent a picture of fluffy shavings you could see through to a friend from milling the rebate. Depending on the pattern milling you're doing, you may find the block has too large a diameter though. A set of bearings is nice, but a ring fence is very versatile and if I could pick only one it would be the ring fence I think.
    I'm noticing that some of the rebate heads have 4 cutters to the combi head's 2. Wouldn't that result in a difference in cut quality and cutter life? Such as:
    https://www.whitehill-tools.com/cutt...eads/CBS004V3/
    vs
    https://www.whitehill-tools.com/cutt...eads/CBS002V3/


    The best English language book on shapers is by Eric Stephenson and when you start going through it, it will blow your mind how much you can do. As soon as I got my first shaper, I stopped using the router table almost entirely as it just wasn't as enjoyable to use, nor did it give results as good. I have not done a rebate with the table saw since, or a groove near an edge and I use the shaper to bring boards down to final width using a back fence and the list goes on...
    I look forward to learning more of the capabilities and how to integrate the machine into projects, your comments are really interesting to hear. Could you elaborate on how and what the use of a 'back fence' entails?

    You might find setting yourself up to tenon on the shaper helpful too, just looking at the list of things you are going to get up to, though it might require additional investment.
    This is a rebate block in conjunction with groovers, or two groovers set on the spindle at once?

    Regardless of where you go, I do suggest MAN rated tooling which is designed for low kickback potential and won't autofeed your hand if the worst happens. Corrugated blocks are very handy and practical and though many folks don't realize it, they are available in limiting style too.
    Could you explain what corrugated and serrated blocks are and their significance? What about when people say 'Euro block' is that another term for insert cutterhead?

    Keith doesn't mind if I answer Whitehill questions here, but feel free to PM me if you prefer.

    B
    Will probably take you up on that when I'm ready to order specific cutterheads and profiles. Thanks!

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Ouray Colorado
    Posts
    1,392
    Nick, that green Rockwell - SCM shaper brings back some memories! That one looks to be in excellent shape considering it’s age. Probably mid 70s. Rockwell brought them in about then. SCM had a dealer before that bringing in the green L’invincables. Anout 1980 they went to the tan color then later SCM came in and it was SCMI. I had a Rockwell labeled SCM slider, T100 shaper and a JP combo at the time. So your starting with a capable machine that appears to be in good condition!
    Last edited by Joe Calhoon; 04-16-2022 at 7:54 AM.

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