Glue options for hand tool window sash

[Scott Clausen]

I am finished milling the rails and stiles for a one over one double sash window. I am thinking I will draw bore where they meet but may want to glue too. The two options I can think of are TB III or epoxy. Any thoughts or other recommendations I would love to hear.

[Robert LaPlaca]

Scott, I have repaired some window sashes from the 1920’s. I was very thankful that the sashes were never initially glued during construction, otherwise the repairs would have been pretty impossible to accomplish. I believe the best solution is no glue, as was traditionally done.

[Luke Dupont]

Scott, I have repaired some window sashes from the 1920’s. I was very thankful that the sashes were never initially glued during construction, otherwise the repairs would have been pretty impossible to accomplish. I believe the best solution is no glue, as was traditionally done.

Agreed. While I don't have any experience with Window sashes directly, I have time, and time again glued things that I wish I hadn't.

I've since learned to use glue sparingly and only where it's necessary, and design things in such a way that they can be taken apart and repaired, modified, or transported later.

I think this is a point lost on many modern woodworkers. We seem to be so focused on over-engineering things that we don't consider that we'll need to take them apart and replace parts down the road anyway...

[Mel Fulks]

Robert’s reasoning is shared by many other good workmen, but I still like using the glue. Sash are often ruined by getting loose
and then ruined by being racked and then damaged by being nailed to “repair”. In employments management wanted some of the really
expensive sash we made of high grade mahogany, glued and clamped. The wooden pegs were mainly for show , when we used them we
did so after some sanding so they could “be PROUD “.

[Richard Coers]

Why draw bore if you are going to glue? I belong to a historical society that owns a tiny one room school house from the 1840s. Still has original sash with square peg draw bored. No rattle and as tight as new.

[Mel Fulks]

Draw — bore is good, but I’ve seen the pins fall out when just handling old sash. The pins get tired ,old ,and shrunken, they should be
inspected every 100 years. You can put a little Elmers School Glue on them . It’s easily removed when deemed necessary.

[Scott Clausen]

Thanks guys, I will just try the draw bore method without glue and see if I can get this baby tight and square. Since I have gone this far using traditional hand tools, no need to deviate now. Next question, should I use the same SYP that I used to make the window or a hardwood for the pins?

[Tom M King]

I have taken apart many 150 years old, and older sash and doors that were never glued. I don't use glue for my reproductions either, since they can be taken apart centuries later by driving out the pegs.

Also, the most failures I've seen have been from drawboring. With really dry wood, as is so easy to get these days, drawboring is not needed. I just clamp them good, drill, and peg. Not a single sash or door I've made, with some being over 40 years old now, have had any failures, or even sagging.

These almost 8' tall reproduction shutters have no glue in the through mortise and tenon pegged joints. 16 of them have been exposed on the outside of this house for seven years now, and every one still operates the same as they did when I first installed them. They stay closed when the house is not open to the public.

The other picture of a 1798 sash with replacement parts. You can see the difference in color with the new wood glazing bars. Try doing that with one glued up.

[Mel Fulks]

I heard the “they can be taken apart” thing many times, and have used it myself . But taking them apart is for fixing them . The whole
thing was settled when the architects spec. out gluing them. There are a lot of down right non traditional things that architects insist on.
The less you have to talk to them the better off you are.

Once an architect sent us a drawing of lop-sided circles to show us his custom designs for sash pins. He’s probably doing stand-up
comedy now, ‘cuz he could sure make us laugh !

[Scott Clausen]

I have taken apart many 150 years old, and older sash and doors that were never glued. I don't use glue for my reproductions either, since they can be taken apart centuries later by driving out the pegs.

Also, the most failures I've seen have been from drawboring. With really dry wood, as is so easy to get these days, drawboring is not needed. I just clamp them good, drill, and peg. Not a single sash or door I've made, with some being over 40 years old now, have had any failures, or even sagging.

This is interesting, I was having some anxiety over "how much draw is too much", I would hate to split my new work. I am now leaning toward the clamp and bore method you describe. Curious, do you take squared stock to make rounded pegs by shaving them or use dowels? Also do you leave some squareness to the last part of the peg to be driven in? This is some videos seem to show. I also like the idea if I do split something I can repair one piece instead of a total redo.

[Tom M King]

I make dowels using a homemade plate. I can't remember the drill bit size I used for the plate holes, but it's a little large. They get dried bone dry in front of the fireplace, and whittled a little before driving in. Sometimes I leave them a little proud so they're obvious to the average person. There are twin tenons, and two pegs in the end of those bottom rails, but for some reason the lower peg doesn't show up in the shadow.

[Scott Clausen]

What size dowels? They look to be about 3/8" and thank you for your help!

[Tom M King]

Those are 1/2", if I'm remembering correctly, but those were made about 7 years ago, so I'm not betting I remember exactly. Those particular shutters are almost 2' wide, and 8' tall, so the proportions are not normal sized shutters. Picture is before pegs. They were taken back apart to paint.

[Scott Clausen]

Those are some big boys there, couldn't tell from the pictures. I think I will go root around the railyard for a piece of steel to make a dowel making jig. I re-watched this video this morning. In it he clamps the window square and hammers wedges into the tenons prior to drilling the hole for the dowel.

[Warren Mickley]

You will notice that in the video, Ted Ingraham uses tapered pins, not dowels. Here in Pennsylvania we find tapered pins on both furniture and sash in old work. If anyone has documentation for dowel plates being used for this type of work in the 18th century, I would like to see it.