Jointing frustration

[Eric Rathhaus]

Warren - do you only use jointer the edge first when you're gluing up panels or do you always joint the edge first before moving to the face?

[James Pallas]

I’m not sure how Warren will answer. Here is how I approach it. I believe this is regularly done. I usually cut the pieces to rough length. I put them in the vice, take a look at it with winding sticks and straight edge. Plane the edge flat using a plane sized to the work. Set it aside and do the same to your next piece. Now put your first piece back in the vice. Balance your second piece on top and check for fit of the joint. Mark the pieces here so you will know what goes where. Lay a straight edge on the side of your pieces to give you a rough check for flat. If it’s out of flat too much for you go back to your plane. You can use your lateral adjuster here if you wish. When you have what you like turn the second piece over on your flat bench, rinse and repeat for the next piece or pieces as you go. I don’t worry much about the edges of a piece being parallel. For a chair seat I would accept maybe 1/2” before I start correcting.
Glue and clamp, that’s it. The objectives to me are, I only have to plane the flat surfaces once, I don’t have to parallel the edges so I only have to make the long rips once maybe not at all if the finished panel is not square.
Jim

[Luke Dupont]

I have routinely jointed and glued boards without first flattening any faces for more than 40 years. It is the historical method and it is the efficient method.

The mistake you made was to use a square to assess wind rather than winding sticks. Even if you had planed a face flat before jointing the edge, a square is not as accurate as winding sticks for assessing wind.

I learned something new today!

Going to try this the next time I need to edge glue up a wider piece.

[steven c newman]

When jointing an edge..I do NOT grab the front knob of the plane....I hook my left thumb over the side of the plane...with the fingers curled under the plane. Knuckles will reference off the face of the board...

Getting ready to joint 4 planks....to make a table top....planks are 33" long. I do have a 3' long Tinner's Ruler (Luftkin) as a straightedge.....thinking about just laying a 4' level down on the edge...and check for high spots.

One check I use, after the first board is jointed, and I'm working on the second one......lay the 1st edge on the next edge, stand back and look for any gaps. If the two boards can sit there, without any support, I think I am doing good....when I can get 4 boards to stack up, and stay stacked up without any help, or braces...time to glue them up...before the weather should happen to change....

Jointing Da1, Old Heff & Hubris.JPG
stack 2 boards together..
Jointing Day1, needs work.JPG
They are just sitting there...slight gap in the middle (spring joint?)
Jointing Day 1, 2 jointers.JPG
Which do you prefer..

[Warren Mickley]

Warren - do you only use jointer the edge first when you're gluing up panels or do you always joint the edge first before moving to the face?

Only when gluing up panels. For truing a board or a glued panel we do a face first because it is easier to match an edge to a face.

James Pallas gave a good outline. Mike asked about gluing the two boards so crookedly that it would be difficult to flatten the whole later. As James mentioned, we lay one board atop the other in the vise and roughly check with straightedge. The straightedge won’t sit quite flat because things are still rough. Keep in mind that since we have not flattened individual boards, there is more material to play with.

[Tom Trees]

It's the same for any other surface if you use the bench for reference
i.e just plane high spots only and don't stop until the gaps are gone inbetween reference.
Take a full length shaving up through the centre and/or stop shaving afterwards.
Look up David Charlesworth if you want to make life easy for yourself.


All the best
Tom

SAM_5333.jpg

[Jack Dover]

I would either get gaps or a twist etc. I checked often with a square and I was doing ok there.

Did you check for squareness at multiple points along the length though?

Is not prepping a face first screwing everything up?

Yup, it does screw everything up. A true face is a must. Imagine a long square rod made from rubber. Now imagine it being slightly twisted around longitudinal axis. At any arbitrary point a square will tell you a face is perpendicular to an edge, however, your eyes will tell you the rod is not true and square. Same happens when you reference from a face that wasn't trued.

Any other ideas?

Just stick to the protocol. It was worked out for a reason and if there would be anything that could have been simplified - it wouldn't be a part of the protocol.

[Derek Cohen]

If all you want to do is joint the edge, and the faces are wonky, then clamp the board firmly on the bench top (so that it cannot move). Arrange it so that the edge is somewhat vertical to the bench. Then shoot the edge with a jointer plane, using the bench top as the shooting board.

Something like this, where I was jointing the mating edges of two thin bookmatched panels ….



Regards from Perth

Derek

[Luke Dupont]

If all you want to do is joint the edge, and the faces are wonky, then clamp the board firmly on the bench top (so that it cannot move). Arrange it so that the edge is somewhat vertical to the bench. Then shoot the edge with a jointer plane, using the bench top as the shooting board.

Something like this, where I was jointing the mating edges of two thin bookmatched panels ….



Regards from Perth

Derek

This is the standard way of shooting edges in Japan, and is really quick and efficient.

I always wondered why we don't see more of it in Western woodworking. It works just as well with Western planes.

About the only down side is that it requires the bench be longer than the edge of the work.

[Tom Trees]

About the only down side is that it requires the bench be longer than the edge of the work.

The bench for some is one of, if not the most important tool in the workshop.
I cannot see why one would choose to have a bench shorter than the work they wish to do, unless they wern't using hand planes.
This bench (Andrew Hunter's) looks to be a very good solution should one want space and a bench.
"Timestamped" for your convenience
https://youtu.be/e9HvZ78-TJ0?t=282

ps Using western planes rather than kanna's or whatever, i.e planing into the wall,
Should there be a solid pillar or wall to keep things put, it would effectively shorten the bench for planing tasks, especially for a longer plane,
To counter this, one could use say a trad saw horse or what have you with some stacked stock to act as a stop for the beams, enabling one to
use a longer plane and not knock it into the wall/pillar etc.

Tom

[Kevin Jenness]

If you are gluing up, put the roughly flattened faces together in the vice and plane both mating edges at once. Any deviation from 90* will be canceled out.

[Warren Mickley]

Planing an edge with the side of the plane on the bench looks slow and clumsy to me.

You can't even put winding sticks on the edge you ar working on.

[Tom Trees]

Not that I can do much of that with my bench being a lab counter top, horrible stinking toxic stuff if abraded like what a cast plane would do,
but I do use a shooting board!
I've got a vintage 5 1/2 on the board, with usual non square sides,
and a box or two of dense timber offcuts, say anything as thick as a deck of cards always at hand for plugging my reclaimed stock.

I shoot these accurate pieces long grain to get the iron parallel, rather than dulling the iron shooting end grain.
I'd imagine it would work very well on the bench too.

Obviously specifically for narrow stock though, and not something which could easily stand on edge by itself, like stock for a chair seat in this instance.

Tom

[Luke Dupont]

Planing an edge with the side of the plane on the bench looks slow and clumsy to me.

You can't even put winding sticks on the edge you ar working on.

Your bench top, provided it's free of twist, works like a giant shooting board. The plane registers square and will take any twist out automatically. No need for winding sticks.

[Warren Mickley]

Your bench top, provided it's free of twist, works like a giant shooting board. The plane registers square and will take any twist out automatically. No need for winding sticks.

You are depending on the flatness of the bench top, the flatness of the plane side and the squareness of the plane. and if you clamp a board that is not flat it distorts. Lots of sources for error and what we call compounding errors.

The winding sticks are a direct measurement and therefore offer much better precision.

In addition, when you are making a joint in a vise, you can set the first board you jointed atop the second and easily see how well they mate.