How long did it take?

[James Pallas]

I guess I should say that I don’t dislike jigs or fixtures. I consider bench hooks in that category its just like a knee hand or saw bench. Something that doesn’t influence the task is not a jig or fixture. Now a shooting board influences the work and adds additional tools to a task. Depending on the task a shooting board may be needed. For instance cutting a board straight and square to a squared line does not require a shooting board. Cutting a miter to match another it may be required. However a good miter box may be just fine for the cut without shooting it.
Jim

[steven c newman]

A typical House Building carpentry crew.
.Carpenters.jpg

[Rafael Herrera]

My father was a cabinet maker. I don't know if he kept a tally of how many hours it took him to make something. It's not only the time, but the amount of wood, supplies, payroll, etc. etc. that goes into figuring out the cost of a project. He certainly had a sense of how much time it took him to deliver a project, I suppose he developed that sense over time. He had to, since he made a living making furniture. My cousin, who has a furniture making business, has a very good sense of the cost of making any particular piece.

Us hobbyists, since we are not making a living out of this, don't have an incentive to be efficient. If we were, we wouldn't be wasting hundreds of dollars in coping saws to make dovetails, or monkeying with a bunch of planes (which I do) to get a board flat.

[Jim Koepke]

"Training wheels may have been a bad analogy. My thoughts went back to my earliest attempts at cutting dovetails. A shop made guide was used to register my saw when cutting dovetails. It didn't work very well. Eventually it dawned on me learning to saw was a better way of making dovetail joints.

Bench hooks and shooting boards are definitely not "training wheels."

Miter boxes are not "training wheels" even though using mine did help me to learn to saw better.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

http://www.woodworkinghistory.com/glossary_J_jig.htm

Woodworkers use/build jigs and fixtures, it's an integral part of the craft/profession. Many times it's the first thing you do when starting a project.
I think it all depends on your own definition of a jig. They can either be a help or a hindrance like any tool, depending on whose hands they're in. I would simply say dismiss them at your own peril.

[steven c newman]

Maybe NOT a jig...but another useful tool...would a set of patterns made up, for the worker(s) to follow, to help build a project.....Sam Maloof had a few walls of patterns just hanging around....to lay out all the curves for the items he made. In the pictures(Plates) from A. Roubo...you can see all sorts of patterns hanging on the walls of the shop....

Yes, I do use jigs, as needed.....not a thing wrong with that.

[Mike Allen1010]

I think the OP makes an interesting and excellent point; if you consider "excellence " in our craft to be both a high level of precision/execution and also speed of execution, at least for me, it creates a different perspective on what we do. Personally, over the years as I've gained confidence in precision with regard to accuracy/execution, I striven for speed as well. For me it's fun, to try and build as efficiently as possible. I have to confess that approach has bitten me in the butt on numerous occasions.

I guess I feel a sense of challenge in demonstrating that hand tools can produce quality work in a timeframe that is at least comparable with power tools. I'm sure when it comes to stock preparation running love rough lumber through a jointer and thickness planer is a lot faster than what I do, but on the joinery side I think hand tools more than hold their own. Just my opinion, YMMV.

Cheers, Mike

[James Pallas]

I think the OP makes an interesting and excellent point; if you consider "excellence " in our craft to be both a high level of precision/execution and also speed of execution, at least for me, it creates a different perspective on what we do. Personally, over the years as I've gained confidence in precision with regard to accuracy/execution, I striven for speed as well. For me it's fun, to try and build as efficiently as possible. I have to confess that approach has bitten me in the butt on numerous occasions.

I guess I feel a sense of challenge in demonstrating that hand tools can produce quality work in a timeframe that is at least comparable with power tools. I'm sure when it comes to stock preparation running love rough lumber through a jointer and thickness planer is a lot faster than what I do, but on the joinery side I think hand tools more than hold their own. Just my opinion, YMMV.

Cheers, Mike

Mike That is my thinking also. My reference to sports is part of that. Those highly skilled journeymen of the past I think were like that. They did a lot without guides or lines. If you pitched 60 mph baseballs to a pro they would hit nearly perfect. I believe those journeymen were that good at least. If they could knock out 6? drawers from rough in 12 hours thats only 2 hours per. The hand and eye thing had to be there.
Jim

[Luke Dupont]

I think jigs, like appliances and fixtures, have been around for a very long time. They allow you to do repeatable things easily. That's not necessarily taking the skill out of it, it's streamlining the process and making it more efficient. If I need one 60º angle cut, I'll do it by hand. Thirty, I'll make a dedicated miter and shooting board to that angle. Disregarding them as "training wheels" really, IMO, misses the point of them. Unless, I suppose, you understand that and you simply want to work harder. Personally, I like to make things.

Anyway, from the antiques I've seen many craftsmen in the past skipped a lot of work we seem to find important today. This is why I don't mind carrying my cuts past the end of a half-blind dovetail, leaving the non-show side of work with the rough planing, skipping finishing on the insides of casework, etc. The truth is, I've seen work done this way that was well over a hundred years old and still surviving. Aside from that, I never count my hours so I have no idea how long it'd take me to complete a secretary (were that a style I was interested in making). I'm not working to a clock.

Well, they can be either training wheels and limitations, or proper tools and aides, depending on how much you rely on them. You just gave an example whereby "if I need one 60º angle cut, I'll do it by hand," meaning that you can do it by hand when you want or need to. Some people employ jigs to such an extent that they can't do any work without them, such that they become a crutch. Others employ jigs for convenience, but don't rely on them. And others still use fewer jigs than that, just out of preference or what have you. No approach is wrong per se, but there are serious limits to the "employing jigs to such an extent that they become a crutch" method, such as the often encountered woodworker who can't sharpen without a jig, and then jumps through amazing and expensive hoops to try to solve the problem of sharpening some odd or unconventionally shaped tool.

It's all about trade offs. Sometimes the jig is easier, but sometimes knowing how to do it by hand just saves a lot of time and headache that would conversely be introduced by reliance on a jig, or the necessity of making one for some special one off circumstance.

Personally, I love the times when I can throwing all jigs and even the concept of squareness and precision out of the window on occasion and just carving a spoon or kuksa or something. Or just taking a spoke shave to a bow-saw or some other shapely piece of work and letting some cool and pleasing shape emerge organically. But I also use jigs (maybe fewer than most) and appreciate them. What you need when and where you need it.

[Luke Dupont]

"Training wheels may have been a bad analogy. My thoughts went back to my earliest attempts at cutting dovetails. A shop made guide was used to register my saw when cutting dovetails. It didn't work very well. Eventually it dawned on me learning to saw was a better way of making dovetail joints.

Bench hooks and shooting boards are definitely not "training wheels."

Miter boxes are not "training wheels" even though using mine did help me to learn to saw better.

jtk

Good distinctions.

Some jigs are pretty indespensible for anyone.

Taken to the extreme you could even consider marking gauges, squares, planes, and any other number of basic tools to be "jigs" and argue based on that extrapolation, which is obviously not what anyone is talking about when postulating the value of sometimes letting go of jigs. We're talking more about your things like your dovetail example, or the flexibility that comes with being able to sharpen free hand, etc.

[Jim Koepke]

Taken to the extreme you could even consider marking gauges, squares, planes, and any other number of basic tools to be "jigs" and argue based on that extrapolation

If my memory is working Chris Schwarz published an article on making marking gauges. There were already a bunch of marking gauges in my accumulation but it gave me an idea to use with a story stick:

Fret Saw Bird's Mouth - Story Stick - Dividers.jpg

The story stick is upper left. It comes in handy when multiple pieces of the same size are involved. It is also handy when another of the same item is to be made. Years ago potting benches, cabinets and other items were made to sell at a farmers market.

A few other shop helpers are in this image.

jtk

[Luke Dupont]

If my memory is working Chris Schwarz published an article on making marking gauges. There were already a bunch of marking gauges in my accumulation but it gave me an idea to use with a story stick:

Fret Saw Bird's Mouth - Story Stick - Dividers.jpg

The story stick is upper left. It comes in handy when multiple pieces of the same size are involved. It is also handy when another of the same item is to be made. Years ago potting benches, cabinets and other items were made to sell at a farmers market.

A few other shop helpers are in this image.

jtk

I like it!

What are the really long compass / bevel looking things? Especially the one with three arms!

[steven c newman]

There was a movie, by Cary Grant....about a fellow building his Dream House.....might be work watching, if nothing else than to watch how the carpenters of that era worked.....

[mike stenson]

Well, they can be either training wheels and limitations, or proper tools and aides, depending on how much you rely on them. You just gave an example whereby "if I need one 60º angle cut, I'll do it by hand," meaning that you can do it by hand when you want or need to. Some people employ jigs to such an extent that they can't do any work without them, such that they become a crutch. Others employ jigs for convenience, but don't rely on them. And others still use fewer jigs than that, just out of preference or what have you. No approach is wrong per se, but there are serious limits to the "employing jigs to such an extent that they become a crutch" method, such as the often encountered woodworker who can't sharpen without a jig, and then jumps through amazing and expensive hoops to try to solve the problem of sharpening some odd or unconventionally shaped tool.

It's all about trade offs. Sometimes the jig is easier, but sometimes knowing how to do it by hand just saves a lot of time and headache that would conversely be introduced by reliance on a jig, or the necessity of making one for some special one off circumstance.

Personally, I love the times when I can throwing all jigs and even the concept of squareness and precision out of the window on occasion and just carving a spoon or kuksa or something. Or just taking a spoke shave to a bow-saw or some other shapely piece of work and letting some cool and pleasing shape emerge organically. But I also use jigs (maybe fewer than most) and appreciate them. What you need when and where you need it.

Well put! I was once asked, in my professional life, at what point one should decide to automate something. My response is the same as for building jigs.. When you've become tired of doing it manually. In the end, tools are just an easier means of doing something and if you think about it things like planes are just jigs for chisels (or, if you prefer knives).

One of the things I like best about hand work is seeing, or reading, about how others do it.

[Jim Koepke]

I like it!

What are the really long compass / bevel looking things? Especially the one with three arms!

The long pair was put together to measure a distance between the edge of flanges on a large wheel. They have come in handy a couple times since.

The one with three arms is a Fibonacci divider > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?223546 < The number 1.618 (often designated by the Greek letter phi ø, I think phi actually has a vertical line through the o) is considered the golden number.

When the outer legs are set to a distance of X the top and middle leg will be at a distance of 0.618 X. If the top leg and the center leg are set to X the outer legs is be at a distance of 1.618 X.

1 divided by 0.618 = 1.618. The Fibonacci sequence: 1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21 ad infinitum tends to have this ratio between the number as they get larger.

This ratio appears in nature. You have likely seen representations like this:

Fibonacci Spiral.png

It has been used in building design and furniture design. The ratio is considered pleasing to many without knowing it is part of the design.

It is possible to make dividers like this to find other ratios.

jtk