Jointer specs questions

[Charles Coolidge]

but if Grizzly and Powermatic machines both look identical.. then they are. There on no 'QC differences' between the brands.

They are not identical and there ARE QC differences between the brands. I have purchased quantities of machines of both brands Grizzly and Powermatic and I'm telling you Grizzly has far more QC issues. This includes their much vaunted made in "Taiwan" machines. Here I'll demonstrate...

Made in Taiwan ShopFox (Grizzly) cyclone. Could they manufacture that chip drum any more crooked? Embarrassingly poor QC. Plus chipped paint, bubbling paint with rust underneath. Which is sad because it's actually quite a fine cyclone, just the QC is lame. You have to decide whether you want to roll the dice on QC with them. And for a jointer there's not much that can be easily remedied if the thing is out of whack. Grizzly sent me a new chip drum which by the way they said cost $539 . I hauled the new drum to the dump and pitched it. The steel is so thin I could literally crush the barrel it with my bare hands. The cheapest of casters. The two latches were a joke. I purchased a steel drum locally for $50 that's way stronger. Added 4 latches instead of 2 and some decent casters.

cyclone01.jpg

cyclone03.jpg

[Charles Coolidge]

I’m not mechanically inclined.

Then you need to stay away from Grizzly machines. The high frequency of QC issues coupled with their support model which is just ship parts to the customer and have the customer wrench on the machine would not be a good fit for you.

[Charles Coolidge]

You don't need an insert cutterhead for hobby cabinetry.

Forgetting that insert helical shearing cutterheads are far superior to knives which tear out badly on figured woods which the hobby guys frequently use consider this. In the old days I began using my brand new jointer with knives and only minutes in I hit a pebble and WHACK a notch in the middle of the knives which required me to go buy brand new knives plus the time and hassle of trying to adjust them. That had to be 35 years ago and I still remember the experience with frustration. Now I just spin the insert(s) to a new edge and I'm back in business.

Let's talk cabinetry, say kitchen cabinets. Mine are Hickory and I guarantee you will want carbide tooling to mill that stuff it's brutal. Knots same thing, advantage inserts. If you only plan to ever joint mostly straight grain knot free soft to medium woods that are not rough sawn e.g. the surface doesn't have hidden impurities that could damage the knives then knives are an option.

Then there's the price. For a 20" planer yeah an insert cutterhead is going to be very expensive but the insert cutterheads for 6"-8" jointers not so much. Especially with half of Asia now making knock-offs of the Byrd.

No I'm NOT done yet lol. Then there's the NOISE wow straight knives are LOUD as hell disrupting my woodworking tranquility. Insert cutterheads are much quieter.

[mike stenson]

You've convinced me with the noise complaint. I'll just keep mostly using hand planes

In reality; I do have, and sometimes use, a power jointer. I just had to chuckle at the 4-6dB of savings (admittedly, that's a lot but.. still over 80+dB... got ear muffs on anyway).

[Charles Coolidge]

As for parallelogram vs dovetailed ways, I keep reading that the // is easier to adjust, but I don’t have any experience with it.

There's a big difference between USA dovetailed ways of old and China/Taiwan quality dovetailed ways today. And on a jointer with angled dovetailed ways and the weight of the tables working against you that's why you hear guys talking about "shimming" and jiggering and having to hassle with them. Hence the invention of parallelogram jointers that once adjusted move up/down on a mechanism that retains alignment.

BUT if you receive a parallelogram jointer that's adjusted out of whack from the factory trying to adjust a parallelogram jointer can quickly get out of hand difficult. Each of the 4 corners of the table will have a cam adjuster to adjust that corner up/down. Seems simple enough but if you adjust one cam the whole table moves, what just happened at the opposite diagonal corner? Adjusting them can be quite tricky. That's why all the manuals caution to adjust in very small amounts. It's not a cakewalk.

[Charles Coolidge]

You've convinced me with the noise complaint. I'll just keep mostly using hand planes

In reality; I do have, and sometimes use, a power jointer. I just had to chuckle at the 4-6dB of savings (admittedly, that's a lot but.. still over 80+dB... got ear muffs on anyway).

Human hearing is such that we perceive a 3dB increase as twice as loud. But it's also the type of noise, straight knife jointer noise is quite unpleasant vs insert noise which is more of a white noise. Not that it matters really the cyclone is LOUD as hell WHAAAAAAAAHHHHH at about 90+ decibels.

[Warren Lake]

Human Hearing requires a 10 db increase to perceive as twice the volume. Jointer noise with straight knives is machine dependent. My general jointer sounds like a tin can. Flapping steel base. The old SCM Invincible has a nice smooth hum to it. No substitute for mass. i wear ear protectors.

[Greg Quenneville]

The noise can be amplified by the arrangement of the tables near the cutter head. Those with notches seem to be (slightly) quieter than the plain tables running straight knives. The dust extractor makes my straight knife machines sound like an air raid siren.

I can’t comment otherwise. I haven’t had the other issues people mention with straight knives, but I hone to crazy sharpness and limit feed rate. I am likely going to convert one of my machines to helical just to deal with rare woods which always seem to have gnarly grain and are chock-a-block with machining risk.

[Andrew Hughes]

My jointer isn’t very loud. I can adjust the table distance out from the knives. So I set the about 1/8 of a inch from the table lips.
My jointer is direct drive so the head spins about 3400 rpms.
I prefer sharp hhs.
Good Luck

[Jim Becker]

...support model which is just ship parts to the customer and have the customer wrench on the machine would not be a good fit for you.

That's kinda how the whole industry works and has for a long time for stationary tools, even the more expensive, premium stuff.

[Charles Coolidge]

That's kinda how the whole industry works and has for a long time for stationary tools, even the more expensive, premium stuff.

Yes, but with Grizzly's high frequency of issues its almost certain this poster will have to wrench on the machine. The Powermatic PJ882-HH I purchased required nothing, even after going over it with my knit picky machinist indicators and measuring tools.

[Holmes Anderson]

Forgetting that insert helical shearing cutterheads are far superior to knives which tear out badly on figured woods which the hobby guys frequently use consider this. In the old days I began using my brand new jointer with knives and only minutes in I hit a pebble and WHACK a notch in the middle of the knives which required me to go buy brand new knives plus the time and hassle of trying to adjust them. That had to be 35 years ago and I still remember the experience with frustration. Now I just spin the insert(s) to a new edge and I'm back in business.

Let's talk cabinetry, say kitchen cabinets. Mine are Hickory and I guarantee you will want carbide tooling to mill that stuff it's brutal. Knots same thing, advantage inserts. If you only plan to ever joint mostly straight grain knot free soft to medium woods that are not rough sawn e.g. the surface doesn't have hidden impurities that could damage the knives then knives are an option.

Then there's the price. For a 20" planer yeah an insert cutterhead is going to be very expensive but the insert cutterheads for 6"-8" jointers not so much. Especially with half of Asia now making knock-offs of the Byrd.

No I'm NOT done yet lol. Then there's the NOISE wow straight knives are LOUD as hell disrupting my woodworking tranquility. Insert cutterheads are much quieter.

I disagree. Neither hobby woodworkers nor typical commercial cabinet shops frequently use highly figured wood for kitchen cabinets and bathroom vanities. Regarding nicks, most people stagger the knives after getting a nick. A careless woodworker can sustain multiple knife nicks and keep using the same knives by staggering them in different ways - same for the planer. A HSS knife will take a deep nick where carbide will shatter because it's so brittle. Carbide inserts are also relatively expensive to replace. HSS jointer knives are practically disposable. Let's talk cabinetry, say kitchen cabinets. Nobody needs carbide inserts to build a single set of kitchen cabinets. HSS knives will stay sharp for your cabinets, bedroom set, dining set, and more, regardless of the wood species. Carbide inserts make sense for a production shop that is building 100s of sets of cabinets per year. They save the down time of blade changes, although rotating a bunch of inserts probably takes more time than swapping a few knives. Carbide inserts make sense for those who process only highly figured wood, but even then the inserts are more useful on the planer than the jointer. You are a hobby woodworker, right? How often did you need swap out the knives on your straight knife jointer? When I bought my first jointer from a local machine supply shop that sold to many hobby woodworkers they told me I would probably get a year out of a set of knives before they needed to be swapped out. They were right, and I work with hard maple, cherry, ash, and white oak so the knives get well used. I concede the points about reduced noise and tearout in highly figured wood but those advantages don't justify an extra $600+ in the purchase price for average Joe hobby woodworker. +1 with Mike Stenson on the hand planes.

[Rick Potter]

If your problem is mainly getting a 90 degree cut on edges, you can solve it by adding a wooden face to your fence.

Drill a couple holes in the face, and screw on a piece of white melamine shelving to it from the back side. Make the fence as square as you can get it, lock it in, then loosen the screws a bit and add paper shims where needed to square it up, then tighten the screws.

Cardboard cereal boxes make great shims. Playing cards are even better if thin is needed.

PS: One other thing. Check to see if one or more of your blades is out of square with the table. That could do what you describe.

[Marc Fenneuff]

One session of dressing the HSS knives on my old iron 8" jointer was enough to remind me why I bought a Shelix for it.

I'm leaving the HSS knives and factory cutterhead in my lunchbox planer because they're indexed, double-sided, inexpensive, and produce a great finish.

I do enjoy honing plane irons and chisels.

[John TenEyck]

Yes, but with Grizzly's high frequency of issues its almost certain this poster will have to wrench on the machine. The Powermatic PJ882-HH I purchased required nothing, even after going over it with my knit picky machinist indicators and measuring tools.

The best machine you can buy is one owned by a perfectionist hobbiest. He/she would have dealt with any issues when they got it. You reap the benefit.

Anyone expecting perfection with a new machine out of the box is often disappointed.

John