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Thread: Excuse my Question

  1. #1
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    Excuse my Question

    I think this is more CNC related than Off Topic forum.

    My Son wants to get a CNC machine that will cut small blocks of stainless steel.

    He has a part he wants to make, but doesn't want to be doing it manually on a milling machine.

    He would like to spend less than $10K, but I don't know how realistic that is.

    I have no idea where to start this research, so I thought I'd ask the experts here.

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Chris - since you are planning to machine stainless steel and not softer materials like aluminum, then I don't think a cnc router like the Avid Pro series would necessarily be a good fit. I think what you want is more like an actual milling machine converted to cnc operation, or one of the other small to medium size dedicated cnc mills. Here is a link to some discussion about small cnc mills.

    Is this a one time project, or does your son plan to make many different types of parts? What size are the parts, and how many? If this is just a one time project and the end goal is to produce the parts, and not necessarily learn about cnc machines, then one suggestion would to have them produced commercially. It may turn out that the cost is far less (in both time and money) than what it would take to buy, set up, and learn how to machine parts. Essentially becoming a cnc machinist.

    Depending on your space and available power, another option would be to purchase a real cnc machining center on the secondary market. There are many very capable machines that can probably be purchased in the $5000 to $15000 price range. I own a Matsuura 510V cnc machining center purchased used back in 2003. At the time I paid around $20,000 from the original owner. I expect it probably cost around $60,000 when new. I am still using that Matsuura today and it has served me well. It does require 3 phase power, and it probably weighs around 7000 lbs.

    Another option would to buy a second hand Bridgeport with the EasyTrak option for cnc machining. This is essentially a conventional Bridgeport knee mill upgraded with ball screws, servo motors, and a control package. I'm not sure what they are currently going for, but they will most likely still require 3 phase power and weigh in around 3000 lbs. or more.

    Perhaps you could share the basic shape with dimensions for the part your son wants to produce so we can take a look and better understand what it looks like, the tolerance requirements, etc.

    David


    https://mellowpine.com/cnc/best-benchtop-cnc-mills/
    best small cnc machines for metal.jpg

    My Matsuura 510V

    matsuura 510v.jpgmatsuura 510v 2.jpg

  3. #3
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    Thank you, he plans to make a single part, although with slight variations. It will not be a high volume.

    I suggested sub'ing it out, but as this all a bit of a pipe dream, he wants to explore the cost of producing the item himself.

    I can't talk about the item as he's sworn me to secrecy, he's young and thinks he's found something the world needs.

  4. #4
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    He may have found something the world needs, now he needs to figure out what they will be willing to pay for it. Those machines look very expensive, I wish him the best of luck!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA Edwards View Post
    Thank you, he plans to make a single part, although with slight variations. It will not be a high volume.

    I suggested sub'ing it out, but as this all a bit of a pipe dream, he wants to explore the cost of producing the item himself.

    I can't talk about the item as he's sworn me to secrecy, he's young and thinks he's found something the world needs.
    Tell him to keep in mind that there are different alloys of stainless steel. Some of them - 304 for instance - are much tougher to machine than some of the softer ones like 303. What is the approximate size, and thickness of material, and it this basically a 2D part or full 3D with 3 dimensional contours? If he is already doing it on a conventional mill, then I expect that 2D or 2 1/2D is the likely configuration. He might also consider doing his "prototyping" using aluminum or some similar material easier to machine and less forgiving if he gets carried away and "crashes" his carbide tooling. I often prototype my lathe parts using nylon which give me a chance to get all the various tools worked out and do a proof of concept before wasting magnesium or a more expensive and possibly difficult material to machine.

    David

  6. #6
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    It's a 3D part but not super complex. it would fit in a 4" cube

  7. #7
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    Most "affordable" CNC machines are not designed in any way to mill steel and stainless steel. Non-ferrous metals like brass, aluminum, etc., no problem with care taken and appropriate tooling can work, although you want a good, stiff and stable machine to do it. Even Camaster has to do some modifications to their big Cobra Elite machine used in their factory to build their own machines when they started needing to mill steel.

    'Just trying to set realistic expectations here and I hope he can find a workable solution to produce the parts. Subcontracting should be on the table I would think if this is some kind of production situation.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  8. #8
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    You might want to ask for advice here - https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/

    This is a site for professional machinists, not a hobby site, a lot of really knowledgeable and experienced people there. You will want to be as specific as possible in your post - size and description of the parts, material, space and electrical power availability, budget, level of experience, etc. Some can be a bit crusty and rude at times, and they will not allow discussion of hobby or cheap chinese machines, but well worth putting up with.
    Last edited by richard newman; 03-26-2022 at 12:01 PM.

  9. #9
    You can add CNC capabilities to a milling machine. There are lots of videos on YouTube of folks doing this. He would have the best of both worlds - the part needs to be machined on a milling machine and he can program it with the CNC capabilities.
    David
    CurlyWoodShop on Etsy, David Falkner on YouTube, difalkner on Instagram

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA Edwards View Post
    It's a 3D part but not super complex. it would fit in a 4" cube

    If you are planning to machine from a solid 4" stainless steel cube, then you would most definitely want a machine which is very rigid with substantial mass. A Bridgeport with cnc upgrade would fit the bill.
    David

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/22431060506...AAAOSwARZXpBNw

  11. #11
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    It will depend on what has to be done to the block too. If it's primarily putting holes in it that's one thing but with a lot of shaping/stock removal that's another. A machining center with ATC would be an all around win. But that will run the cost up. The other thing to remember is that even if it's what the world needs it won't belong until it's being duplicated/copied/stolen by someone on the other side of the world. Depending on what it is of course. Just look at the "cheap" imitations of Woodpecker products and how many are copied. I wish him well though. Hope he is very successful.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA Edwards View Post
    Thank you, he plans to make a single part, although with slight variations. It will not be a high volume.

    I suggested sub'ing it out, but as this all a bit of a pipe dream, he wants to explore the cost of producing the item himself.

    I can't talk about the item as he's sworn me to secrecy, he's young and thinks he's found something the world needs.
    In general, this is backwards from my advice on testing out a business idea. IF the market demands plays out and sales take off - it is then straightforward to implement manufacturing cost improvements. (and easy to get financing since the demand data is there to justify it).

    The bigger hurdle, most often, is lack of paying customers.

    So my advice is usually to job it out in whatever way needed, even if you lose money, to prove that there is a market demand. THEN make the investment needed to manufacture at lower cost.

    (I do understand the urge to optimize manufacturing - which is fine if the demand is proven and that by doing so offers a value better than what is currently in the market. More specific to your question - I have milled stainless a fair bit, and agree you need a real mill not a router. The only way you 'might' get by with one of the lightweight machines if it was small and did not require a lot of material removal - you can take very light passes)
    Last edited by Carl Beckett; 03-28-2022 at 11:39 AM.

  13. #13
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    A friend just entered this world. Their model seams like it would work. They bought an avid bench pro to machine in aluminum for prototyping. Once that was done they had china produce a batch. Then had them sandblasted and anodized/cerakoted and sold. Now they have a Haas on order and plan to bring the cerakoting in house.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA Edwards View Post
    It's a 3D part but not super complex. it would fit in a 4" cube

    Chris - my first question should have been: Does your son have any experience machining parts using conventional tools (Bridgeport style mill)? If he is already proficient at making his prototype parts using a conventional milling machine, then the transition from conventional to cnc would be easier. If he is just starting out and really has no hands on experience with the conventional equipment, then I expect there will be a huge learning curve - both in machine shop theory as well as the cnc part of it.

    David

  15. #15
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    He has no machine experience, but has sourced a company that can mill his part for a reasonable cost, so if this moves forward, that's the way he will go for the first couple of hundred items and see if there is demand for his product.

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