Are these Japanese chisels worth buying?

[Frederick Skelly]

Tools for Working Wood is a vendor I really enjoy doing business with. Today I see that they list a set of 6 Kumagoro Oire-Nomi Bench Chisels with Pre-set Hoops for $239 USD. LINK I know almost nothing about Japanese chisels. What do those of you who do know them think of this set? Are they good value for what they are?

I'm merely a hobbyist. I'd be using them mainly on softwoods.

Thank you.
Fred

[chuck van dyck]

Hey Fred. I think the first question to answer is are you willing to put in the work to set them up. If not, I’d look at the Iles chisels TFWW sells.
If yes, than that seems like a good deal to me. I think you’ll love em.
Preset hoop sounds good, but they often aren’t set well and the wood hasn’t been mushroomed. The backs will likely need some attention as well. Get Joe on the phone. Super friendly/helpful guy.

[William Fretwell]

The red flag is the main selling feature is the hoops, not the steel or blades. You get what you pay for, sometimes, but the price suggests that may not be much. Chisels get used a lot, of my 5 sets the high quality sets are a joy to use. I find the proportions of Japanese chisels lovely to use. Spending a little more with a Japanese supplier may get a much better set.

[Derek Cohen]

Tools for Working Wood is a vendor I really enjoy doing business with. Today I see that they list a set of 6 Kumagoro Oire-Nomi Bench Chisels with Pre-set Hoops for $239 USD. LINK I know almost nothing about Japanese chisels. What do those of you who do know them think of this set? Are they good value for what they are?

I'm merely a hobbyist. I'd be using them mainly on softwoods.

Thank you.
Fred

Fred, I do not know these chisels first hand, however I recognise that their price places them at the entry end of the market for Japanese chisels.

What might I expect of them once set up? Pretty decent results as long as used within their envelop. The major factor is that the cutting edge is thin and hard steel, and this can chip if misused. On the other hand, the edge could outlast many chisels several times their cost.

Japanese oire nomi are used with a gennou (hammer) for control. They are not used for prying or levering waste.

Japanese oire nomi also generally arrive as a kit - you are expected to set them up. This involves setting the hoop and flattening the back of the blade. Not difficult at all.

This is article I wrote on a restoration, which will give you an idea. But note that the hoop setting I did was not typical ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRes...aRebuild2.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[andy bessette]

Tools for Working Wood is a vendor I really enjoy doing business with...

This is a good indicator.

I have a set of Japanese chisels I bought used decades ago. They are my favorites of all my chisels. Pretty sure they came from the Japan Woodworker.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Fred, I do not know these chisels first hand, however I recognise that their price places them at the entry end of the market for Japanese chisels.

What might I expect of them once set up? Pretty decent results as long as used within their envelop. The major factor is that the cutting edge is thin and hard steel, and this can chip if misused. On the other hand, the edge could outlast many chisels several times their cost.

Japanese oire nomi are used with a gennou (hammer) for control. They are not used for prying or levering waste.

Japanese oire nomi also generally arrive as a kit - you are expected to set them up. This involves setting the hoop and flattening the back of the blade. Not difficult at all.

This is article I wrote on a restoration, which will give you an idea. But note that the hoop setting I did was not typical ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRes...aRebuild2.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

What Derek said.

I’ll reiterate for emphasis: use Japanese chisels to only cut, and their edges will stay sharp much longer than at least the modern Western chisels I have tried (standard Narex, Pfeil, Craftsman). Technique is essential (for Western chisels as well); a steady hand, direct force, no prying, scraping, etc. in addition to frequent, light sharpening is key to keeping the edge sharp as long as possible.

Also, I see that these are made by Iyoroi. I have exactly one Iyoroi chisel, that I purchased from Lee Valley to see how it compared to my other chisels. It’s better steel and better for chopping than my Narex standard bevel edge bench chisels; it takes an edge about as easily and holds it longer. It’s a good chisel, though the steel is easier to chip than my other Japanese chisels (see below) in spite of feeling a bit softer on the stones. Is it actually softer? I don’t have a hardness tester, but the feel when sharpening seems like a reasonable indicator. How representative of Iyoroi chisels in general is this one example? I do not know.

A step above this in both quality and cost are the Koyamaichi chisels I own (three shinogi oiirenomi “dovetail chisels” and one mentori usunomi “paring chisel”); better steel that takes a better edge (in my hands) and holds an edge longer without being more difficult to sharpen. The overall feel is more solid and the geometry seems a bit more refined. In particular, in the oiirenomi there’s less vibration when struck with a gennou, leading to better ability to feel and control the cut.

My favorite oiirenomi were purchased from Stan Covington (covingtonandsons.com). No affiliation, just a very happy customer. These are even a bit better than the Koyamaichi; the feel is similar but the steel is even better (I can get these even a bit sharper and they hold their edge a bit longer) while the price was similar. The tradeoff is that they require more setup time/effort than the Koyamaichi. Stan’s blog contains detailed instructions. The steel also feels a bit harder on the stones.

Neither the Koyamaichi nor the oiirenomi from Stan seem to have any tendency to chip. Both are excellent choices and a significant step up from my one Iyoroi.

I hope this helps.

Michael

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks everyone! This information helps me and I appreciate your help.
Best regards,
Fred

[Jeff Bartley]

Fred,
I have traveled a similar road so I’ll share my experience. Years ago I visited a hardware store in a town about an hour and half away and saw that they had a set of Japanese chisels in the case. A couple years later I heard that the store was closing so I went back in and that set was still there in the same case so I made the manager an offer on the set. She accepted so I left with my prize.

Researching this set I was told they were just a mass produced low grade set of chisels, good, but not great. The 6mm chisel started chipping almost immediately in Douglas fir. It chipped twice before I set it down for a period of time. It takes a lot of work to get a chip out without a grinding wheel! I did eventually work it again and sure as the sun rising it chipped again. Then a second chisel chipped. Then I emailed Stan.

That was about a month ago. I decided to order a couple different styles just to see what’s what. I wound up with a Atsunomi, a hantatakinomi, and a shinogi usunomi. These chisels are pretty incredible, they have a weirdly smooth feel on the stones and seem to get sharper quicker.

The most surprising part was the speed with which they arrived. I emailed with Stan on a Sunday morning, Wednesday afternoon DHL dropped off the package.

I wouldn’t hesitate to try a really good chisel, personally I’m not sure the less expensive sets are worth the time.

[Luke Dupont]

I've used a lot of entry level Japanese chisels.

Most of them are really quite decent quality, and I still use them a lot. A few weren't so much. If you are interested in just trying a few entry level Japanese chisels to see if you like them, I'd recommend just getting one or two and not a whole set, that way if they turn out not to be so good you didn't sink too much money into them, and if they turn out to be just fine for you, you can buy more. And if you want a set of really good ones, then I'd just skip the cheap ones and take the advise / recommendations here, or of people like Stan Covington.

Now, I do pry lightly/carefully with my Japanese chisels. If you pry such that the force is unsupported (ie, the flat and not the bevel is behind the cutting edge) they will chip quite easily, but if you pry correctly they won't chip much or often. Japanese people cut plenty of mortises with these chisels, and do pry out the waste. I don't know how you would go about cutting a mortise without prying out waste... But anyway, yes, you do have to be just a little more careful, and use good technique.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

While I haven’t closely watched any skilled Japanese woodworkers pry waste out of mortises, my guess is that they do something similar to what I do. Specifically, I do not pry in lieu of cutting, breaking off wood fibers rather than severing them—this is the harmful prying I referred to above. Instead, I do use a prying motion to scoop out the chips that have already been severed (riding the bevel for a significant majority of the chopping), and I do so primarily with the back of the chisel rather than the extreme edge. As I do so, I am mindful of keeping the sharp edge from getting stuck or scraping the bottom or ends of the mortise. I also “pry out” (scoop out?) these chips before they build up enough to get stuck in the mortise and require extra force to pry them out. Any chips that do feel stuck get a quick chopping thrust to knock them loose before being “pried out.”

Is that considered proper technique for a Japanese woodworker, or proper technique in general? All I can say for certain is that I find it less effort overall and my edges stay sharp longer this way. No doubt I can improve further.

[Luke Dupont]

While I haven’t closely watched any skilled Japanese woodworkers pry waste out of mortises, my guess is that they do something similar to what I do. Specifically, I do not pry in lieu of cutting, breaking off wood fibers rather than severing them—this is the harmful prying I referred to above. Instead, I do use a prying motion to scoop out the chips that have already been severed (riding the bevel for a significant majority of the chopping), and I do so primarily with the back of the chisel rather than the extreme edge. As I do so, I am mindful of keeping the sharp edge from getting stuck or scraping the bottom or ends of the mortise. I also “pry out” (scoop out?) these chips before they build up enough to get stuck in the mortise and require extra force to pry them out. Any chips that do feel stuck get a quick chopping thrust to knock them loose before being “pried out.”

Is that considered proper technique for a Japanese woodworker, or proper technique in general? All I can say for certain is that I find it less effort overall and my edges stay sharp longer this way. No doubt I can improve further.

That's a good way to do it!

I definitely can't claim any sort of authority or expertise on the subject, and I'm sure you'll find a ton of different opinions even among Japanese woodworkers.

But, I guess I do things sort of similar to how you describe with Japanese chisels. I do actually lever and break waste out conservatively. Sometimes though I'm more careful and do more what you describe. Depends on what feels appropriate at the time. I never sat down and analyzed what I'm doing though, to be honest... I just kind of work how I feel is appropriate given the particular chisel, wood, and thickness or depth of cut. You sort of get a feel for it.