Potential Shop Build - looking for feedback

[Phillip Mitchell]

I am in the exploratory / feasibility study phase of planning a shop build on our property and am looking for some feedback, mostly on construction methods based on what I'm hoping to do. I have attached a photo of a simple floor plan/overall dimensions sketch as well as some photos of the site in its current state below.

Bit of background - I have a small one man shop / custom woodworking business (started in 2018) that I have been operating out of the small walkout basement of our house. Became much less bearable when the venture changed from occasional / side jobs to more full time business and projects and I make it work but am (literally) banging my head against the wall (and ceiling) at times and am desperately in need of a change of scenery and a lot more space for multiple reasons. Trying to avoid moving to a rented shop space for several reasons - like being at home/no commute/having 24/7 access to my shop, dont want to pay rent down the drain to be in someone else's probably less than ideal space, the cost and effort of physically moving and re-doing electrical infrastructure in someone else's space (mostly heavy 3 phase machines that aren't exactly quick and easy to move and setup.) A couple of links to my current shop from a shop tour I did a few months back for context.

https://youtu.be/AVSBsKK1jOI
https://youtu.be/JEcuXNJu_1E

Current proposed shop is essentially a 30x40 box with a 16x16 box on the south west corner and a 16x24 box on the north east corner - around 1800 sq ft of interior space with about 2100 sq ft of slab including a few of the exterior areas Id like a slab for. The reason for the added boxes is due to the limitations of the site and to try and maximize the existing flat/mostly graded site to its fullest. Hoping to use the 16x16 area with a 14' rollup door for incoming material, small flatbed truck, forklift (one day) unloading/storage, the 30x40 for mostly machine/assembly/bench work and the 16x24 area for a dedicated finishing space + partitioned off small office / drafting space. In my mind this entire space is completely wide open, clear span except a few interior partition walls to define the small office space in the NE corner.

Looking at the drawing you may see that I want (1) ~12-14’ rollup door (wide as reasonably possible for trailer/materials/truck, (1) ~10' roll up door, lots of windows on all sides of the building (north side can be all up high, small and fixed) but otherwise mostly operable on the south and east sides, (2) 36" man doors. Edit: may make sense to make both doors 12’ wide for consistency and ease of backing a trailer.

For some context, comparing the site photos with the drawings - the long rear North wall of the shop is essentially just off of and parallel with the existing concrete block wall. This wall will likely need to be partially or fully removed and rebuilt with active drainage integrated in to help divert water from the mountain behind and away from the slab and building that will sit right at the base of the hill. The last photo is the one that's closest to the perspetive of the sketch.

Hoping for 12' of ceiling height at the side walls (S and N side.) Metal roof and siding is fine, but not totally sold or convinced on a metal framed building as I dont know if the floor plan and dimensions I want/need is readily available or adaptable. Maybe I'm wrong? Insulation and vapor control is also important as this space will need to be climate controlled in winter and summer. Thinking mini split (s?) for that. Very much open to discussion on insulation and air sealing detailing.

In my head this is a slab on grade, but I may be overlooking something there and am admittedly not really a concrete / foundation guy. There is a literal small mountain (we live in the mountains) directly behind this building location and it may / likely need a rear retaining wall with active drainage to divert water around the building/slab. When we moved here in 2013 there was an old single wide mobile home in the location and the area had some grading done prior to that for the MH, but will need a bit more additional grading as my proposed shop is longer and wider than the MH was. The area is currently not used for much and has fallen into a bit of neglect. Mostly used for compost/wood chip dumping and a brush/burn pile. Very rural area at the end of the road so I'm not really concerned with neighborhood aesthetics, etc.

Budget is obviously a large factor. I am still working out the details on what I can actually afford, but would prefer to start from a place of ideal given the site and work in compromises from there. The majority of this work will be hired out except for interior finishes and some of the electrical. Young family and small business take up all of my time despite working as a carpenter/timber framer/project mgr for others in the past.

Wondering what makes the most sense in terms of building type given these wants/parameters. Really wanting wide open floor, clear spans with 30' being the largest span in the 30x40 section. Stick framed with wooden trusses, metal trusses, post-frame with trusses? Somehow a metal building in this exact size and dimensions?? All the windows and specifics of the floor plan make me think that metal building isn't really a good option (plus needing to essentially frame out/build out the interior additionally if you want wood walls for simple attaching/hanging/etc)

Thoughts? I have some but am holding back a bit because this is overly long as it is and looking for fresh perspectives from others who have done this and lived with their shops.

Thanks for looking and any advice.

[Bryan Lisowski]

I would do Post Frame, mostly since you want a clear span building. I would do my best to keep in increments of 8’. So if you can I would try to do 32’x40’, it is larger, but would believe it is less labor. I think 14’ is a strange size for a door. I don’t know what your building, but unless you absolutely need that large of a door, 12’ would probably be my max.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I am a fan of traditional, residential, construction. My slab garage workshop, with 2 x 6 walls and traditional 16 inch centered, wood framing, is on a slab with deep footings. It is an excellent building. I do wish it had an area with wood floors. Concrete really hurts my feet and legs.
Dad (and I) built his hybrid shop 40 years ago. It is an insulated and sheet rocked pole barn with a wood floor hanging from the poles. It is a mess. It will fall down or be torn down soon.

I am glad I have not had to deal with ceilings any higher than 9 feet for some time. 8 feet is awkward for a wood shop, 9 feet has been excellent for me.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I would do Post Frame, mostly since you want a clear span building. I would do my best to keep in increments of 8’. So if you can I would try to do 32’x40’, it is larger, but would believe it is less labor. I think 14’ is a strange size for a door. I don’t know what your building, but unless you absolutely need that large of a door, 12’ would probably be my max.

Thanks Bryan, I think I was confusing height and width there as many large commercial overhead doors are 14’ tall. 12’ wide would probably be a good choice for both to keep it standard and make backing a trailer in an easy option in either door. The reason for the wider door on that side is that I have a more long term plan to add more of a storage building very close to that side (SW corner) and use it for wood storage and metal work/tool restoration/storage and was thinking of going as wide as possible for moving lumber, etc with a forklift from storage area into the main shop. I have seen very wide (20’?) doors in certain places, but don’t have that option here as the building needs to terminate in a particular place to keep a single lane of truck travel past that corner of the building and due to orientation, can only be so wide on that end.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Ooh, Forklift! You will be needing those tall ceilings.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Ooh, Forklift! You will be needing those tall ceilings.

The ceiling height in my current basement shop varies between 81-83” so yeah, I’m making up for lost time/all my time spent in a hobbit sized shop. Biggest things I need is tall ceilings, lots of natural light, big doors, dedicated finishing area and plenty of wide open space to stage lumber, parts, and completed work.

Back to the building frame....if using roof trusses where does the difference come with stick framed vs post framed. Seems like post frame would go up faster potentially but obviously have a lot less
meat in the walls and would likely need additional interior back framing in certain areas and for windows/doors. wood vs metal roof trusses is another question I have. I have little practical experience with either having either timber framed or stick framed roofs previously.

What are the differences in this application between cost, install, engineering and lead time between wood and metal roof trusses.

[Scott Winners]

I can't help with above ground, but get your dirt work correct. In the pics your mountain on the back side was a bit smaller than I expected, but you want all that rain runoff and snow melt going around, not under your foundation for the building to last.

Good luck.

[Kevin Jenness]

I think the construction method will depend on the bids you get. You have a good basic plan and your building experience will help in sorting out the pluses and minuses of construction details. I would echo Scott's comment about drainage. A friend built his shop at the base of a hill like yours and wound up doing expensive retro work to dry things out.

I built my shop in stages using site-milled lumber and my own labor with no mortgage. There's an obvious advantage, but getting the shop you need up front will be more productive as long as you can finance it with a good business plan. Will you have employees in the future? Done right, that will allow for paying off your capital investment more easily, but you may spend more time herding cats than woodworking.

I have an insulated wood floor on sleepers over a slab, much easier on the feet and dropped tools than concrete. If you do go with a slab insulation is a good investment at least in this climate. You may want to look at in-slab radiant heat. I have a mini-split plus a wood stove which works out for me - I get to burn my mistakes.

One thing I should have done is allow for changing electrical locations. Think about easy access to the panel to add circuits, and running cable overhead to surface mounted drops on the walls. My machine layout has changed several times over the years and flexibility is important. Also, ample lighting - as time goes on you will want more. And give thought to efficient dust collection and disposal.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks Scott and Kevin,

Absolutely need to get the grading and drainage sorted out first. Scott, the photo doesn’t really show the size of the mountain (goes on/up much farther than is visible in the photos) but then again, I’m in the old Appalachian Mtns of NC and in AK ...different scale.

There is what I’d call a wet weather spring that surfaces close to the proposed building site...more into the area than would be the gravel driveway to the shop. This has needed some attention already and seems to be where the bulk of the water from that mountain drains to, but will obviously need to be addressed prior to / in conjunction with grading work on the shop. I think I mentioned it in my first post - but it was so long - that I think that the existing block wall at the base of the hill will need to be torn down, re-graded, and possible new retaining wall with footing drainage diverting water, or at the very least lots of gravel and substantial footing drains against the building footings/slab. I have limited experience in spec’ ing exactly how that needs to be but, at least know that it’s something to address off the bat and make sure that it’s robust enough to handle potentially large amounts of water.

I will look into insulating under the slab with foam and which local concrete finishers will actually have the patience and experience to deal with it. Agree that would be my preference long term for both energy and comfort.

I feel like I’ve got a solid handle and plan on all the interior elements (lighting, dust, electrical) based on what I have seen and worked around in the past and/or been missing in my current shop. It will more than likely be all surface mounted electrical in conduit.

It’s mainly the building type / structure that I’m wrestling with given the size and shape. I have been a part of plenty of ground up (high end residential or timber frame) new builds but rarely was involved to a critical degree with sorting out these pre-construction details and gathering bids/pricing/options from subs and the planning that goes in at this stage. I have some other pressing details (financing and building dept / inspections) to sort out before getting to the point of asking for bids on say the framing package, etc. I have been able to see pricing on the cheaper type of metal buildings (not red iron) from looking online and filling out different options, but have no real sense of accurate pricing yet on stick built or post frame and how it may compare. Just trying to get a general sense of cost comparison between the options involved, though I realize that may be impossible at this stage from folks online.

Edit: don’t want any employees - too much to manage and deal with. That may change at some point if a willing and motivated apprentice approaches me and wants to learn, but otherwise I prefer to work alone and only be responsible for myself and my family at the scale that I tend to work.

[Ron Selzer]

"Just trying to get a general sense of cost comparison between the options involved, though I realize that may be impossible at this stage from folks online."

Look over on newagtalk.com machinery talk forum. always someone posting about new shops, most are bigger than yours however lots of good information about costs, insulation, etc.

I definitely would put in a french drain above the building site with big enough tile to drain twice what you think will be needed, then another tile line between it and your building. Can't have too much drainage as you don't need the shop flooded once every 3-5 years.

[Jim Becker]

Post frame is going to give you the "mostest for the leastesst", as it were. You can have clear-spans that are "enormous" and way, way beyond what you ask for. Post frame gives you a completely open structure that can easily be adapted to where you want to go. It's also a lot easier to do the large doors you want because of how weight is transferred. Additionally, the slab is taken out of the equation for supporting the building...it just needs to be engineered to support the weight of the "stuff"/purpose. I do recommend you opt for laminated posts to sit on heavy brackets connected to concrete supports that go down into the ground for both longevity and for an even more accurate, square structure. (watch some RR Buildings videos on the 'Tube to see that technique in use) Post frame goes up REALLY fast and is uber-strong when done correctly. It's also less complicated than stick-framing a la how a lot of residential building is done...the walls between the posts are not supporting the structure and taller wall heights are a natural. When you get beyond a 9-10" wall height with stick-frame, the engineering gets "very interesting". With post frame....how high do you want it?

My own new shop building will most likely be post-frame, albeit a whole lot smaller than yours for my hobby use. I've chosen it because it's actually cost competitive with the metal "carport" style buildings once the concrete work is added in and a little simpler for me to deal with the interior.

I'm a fan of closed cell spray foam for sealing, insulation and condensation control, but for post frame, 8' wide R19 fiberglass is readily available for walls and doing blown-in insulation in a closed ceiling is pretty cost effective.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks Jim. Glad you commented as I know you’re going down that path as well and have mentioned post frames in the past. I’m familiar with Kyle and his builds/content. I will have to go back and dig through some previous videos I’ve watched years ago that show his process. I think part of my challenge will be finding someone local that is experienced and setup for post framing and is willing to actually do the work of pouring piers / helical piers instead of burying PT posts in sacrete and saying “that‘s good enough for a shop.” I’m pretty experienced with high end residential construction and some commercial but really just don’t have the time and labor force available to self perform and/or actively manage a build like this at this point in my life unfortunately. It would take me 3 years to build something like this alone given the available “free time” I have

The cost of steel these days makes me shake my head as I was considering metal roof and siding just for simplicity and speed of install. We shall see.

I could see a 2” layer of closed cell then follow up with R19 batts in the walls and possibly loose fill of a flat ceiling with trusses.

Thanks for the reply.

[Jim Becker]

Most of the "good" post frame builders are using laminated posts these days (easier to get a square building) and doing piers with steel mounts is more of a money matter. I only referenced Kyle and Greg because 95% of their buildings use that method and the other 5% are using the same/similar brackets to fasten the post to a formal slab, either with a raised stem wall or monolithic. I like the pier idea because they can be engineered to handle a huge load while at the same time permitting the builder to enjoy accuracy that's harder to do when you are putting the actual post in the ground. I think you'll find that steel roof and siding is still going to be more cost effective than sheathing and standard siding/roofing and aside from materials, there's a big labor factor advantage to the steel. It goes up really fast. Whether I end up with wood post frame or steel post frame ('car port' type), it's definitely less expensive to do the steel roof and wall coverings based on quotes I've obtained.

[tom lucas]

Those boulder outcrops are likely a sign that the whole area is very rocky. Dug foundations may be a challenge. Post and Beam might be your "easiest". A 1200 foot shop - that would be a dream. Hope to see it soon enough.

[Jim Becker]

In addition to what Tom mentions, the area for the building location will have to be made flat so don't discount the amount of ground work required. And that's regardless of building type. I actually just moved the location for my shop building back another four feet because it reduces the leveling task and I'm only about a foot at the most out of level front to back before ground work. From those photos, you'll have a little more effort on that task for sure.