Related to SawStop

[Bert McMahan]

Hello Bert, You are simply incorrect - I slammed nobody - if you or others chose to buy one, no problem - it is your $. But I have read peoples comments who have got their finger in there = it does not "prevent" any accident, it limits damage somewhat. A table saw blade is typically very sharp & at that RPM, damage will occur, even with so-called "instant stop". I personally do not see the value there at all on price of Saw Stop, a much superior Hammer K3 winner sliding saw could be had for not much more. Even with a Saw Stop, recommending absolute complete focus & care at all times when saw is on, is not "slamming".

It limits damage in a massive, massive way for a whole lot of accidents. It doesn't just slightly lower the amount of injury you'll get. Look at the high speed videos out there. Sharp blades at high RPM will do damage... but the blade stops in something like 3 teeth moving past your finger. If you slap it like you're playing whack-a-mole you might get a lot of damage cut, but you're really over-minimizing how much of an effect the blade stopper can have for, say, a kickback causing your hand to pull into the blade. It turns a "cut your finger off" accident into a "get some stitches and Tylenol" accident. Studies have shown this to be true: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4154236/ There are more than 30,000 table saw accidents annually. Most of them are finger or thumb injuries, which are likely to be caused by blade contact (as opposed to a kickback, which Sawstops don't help with). The mean age of an occupational injury was 40 years. Assuming someone's been working in that career since they were in their 20's, that means the average table saw injury happened to someone with 15-20 years of experience.

Regarding "slamming" someone- your first post erroneously says that the SS won't prevent much damage in a tone that clearly implies that anyone who thinks otherwise simply isn't thinking about it enough. "Do not let fear control your life"- clearly, in the context of your post, you're saying anyone who buys a Sawstop is just letting marketing speak and fear control their lives. In your next post you say "You can get a real saw", which is clearly again an insult to anyone who likes their Sawstop. If someone said about your car "Well, if you get a real car, then..." or "Well, if you were a real parent, you'd..." That's what I call slamming. You might not be meaning it that way (since of course you can't convey much emotion through text) but that's what the words say. Consider how you'd feel if someone said that about you. Would you feel insulted?

No, I'm not sponsored by Sawstop or anything. The only one I've used is at my local Woodcraft for classes and it seems to work fine and is a well made saw. I use a slider at home.

Not to mention a Hammer K3 Winner, while definitely a great saw, is $5700 minimum, whereas a Sawstop is about 4k. A 40% higher cost isn't anything to sneeze at.

Last- I fully agree you should have complete focus 100% of the time you're operating a tool. A Sawstop is not a reason to be sloppy. It's a "belt and suspenders" system that helps if you have a momentary lapse of judgement or if something kicks a weird way. In that regard it's similar to a blade guard. If you were 100% focused at all times you don't need a blade guard... but we're not robots here, we're people, and sometimes we make mistakes.

[Dave Roock]

It limits damage in a massive, massive way for a whole lot of accidents. It doesn't just slightly lower the amount of injury you'll get. Look at the high speed videos out there. Sharp blades at high RPM will do damage... but the blade stops in something like 3 teeth moving past your finger. If you slap it like you're playing whack-a-mole you might get a lot of damage cut, but you're really over-minimizing how much of an effect the blade stopper can have for, say, a kickback causing your hand to pull into the blade. It turns a "cut your finger off" accident into a "get some stitches and Tylenol" accident. Studies have shown this to be true: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4154236/ There are more than 30,000 table saw accidents annually. Most of them are finger or thumb injuries, which are likely to be caused by blade contact (as opposed to a kickback, which Sawstops don't help with). The mean age of an occupational injury was 40 years. Assuming someone's been working in that career since they were in their 20's, that means the average table saw injury happened to someone with 15-20 years of experience.

Regarding "slamming" someone- your first post erroneously says that the SS won't prevent much damage in a tone that clearly implies that anyone who thinks otherwise simply isn't thinking about it enough. "Do not let fear control your life"- clearly, in the context of your post, you're saying anyone who buys a Sawstop is just letting marketing speak and fear control their lives. In your next post you say "You can get a real saw", which is clearly again an insult to anyone who likes their Sawstop. If someone said about your car "Well, if you get a real car, then..." or "Well, if you were a real parent, you'd..." That's what I call slamming. You might not be meaning it that way (since of course you can't convey much emotion through text) but that's what the words say. Consider how you'd feel if someone said that about you. Would you feel insulted?

No, I'm not sponsored by Sawstop or anything. The only one I've used is at my local Woodcraft for classes and it seems to work fine and is a well made saw. I use a slider at home.

Not to mention a Hammer K3 Winner, while definitely a great saw, is $5700 minimum, whereas a Sawstop is about 4k. A 40% higher cost isn't anything to sneeze at.

Last- I fully agree you should have complete focus 100% of the time you're operating a tool. A Sawstop is not a reason to be sloppy. It's a "belt and suspenders" system that helps if you have a momentary lapse of judgement or if something kicks a weird way. In that regard it's similar to a blade guard. If you were 100% focused at all times you don't need a blade guard... but we're not robots here, we're people, and sometimes we make mistakes.

Hello Bert, Your perception is the only issue - nowhere was I personally insulting anyone, just expressing my opinion - no intent to insult you in the least. Not letting fear control your life was trying to be a positive message for all aspects of our lives = constant marketing in all areas, shoving fear down our throats - you will notice it more and more in commercials now that we have talked about it.
I consider a Hammer K3 to be a far superior product - "the real saw" was more a rip on all Chinese/Taiwan saw products, which very much cut corners on overall quality. Just checked prices - 3hp Sawstop about $4,500 & K3 Winner $5,700 = percentage differences are not as much as you stated - for only $1,200 more, you can get a far better product with much greater functionality. At least we agree people need to be far more careful, no matter what power tool they are using. Best of luck in all you do.

[Andrew Hughes]

Thanks dan for the info. I’m surprised. I used to own a unisaw I cannot remember how much I paid for but it less then 2k. It was before sawstop came to market
I wonder saw stop owners still use push sticks or push pads.

[Dave Roock]

It limits damage in a massive, massive way for a whole lot of accidents. It doesn't just slightly lower the amount of injury you'll get. Look at the high speed videos out there. Sharp blades at high RPM will do damage... but the blade stops in something like 3 teeth moving past your finger. If you slap it like you're playing whack-a-mole you might get a lot of damage cut, but you're really over-minimizing how much of an effect the blade stopper can have for, say, a kickback causing your hand to pull into the blade. It turns a "cut your finger off" accident into a "get some stitches and Tylenol" accident. Studies have shown this to be true: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4154236/ There are more than 30,000 table saw accidents annually. Most of them are finger or thumb injuries, which are likely to be caused by blade contact (as opposed to a kickback, which Sawstops don't help with). The mean age of an occupational injury was 40 years. Assuming someone's been working in that career since they were in their 20's, that means the average table saw injury happened to someone with 15-20 years of experience.

Regarding "slamming" someone- your first post erroneously says that the SS won't prevent much damage in a tone that clearly implies that anyone who thinks otherwise simply isn't thinking about it enough. "Do not let fear control your life"- clearly, in the context of your post, you're saying anyone who buys a Sawstop is just letting marketing speak and fear control their lives. In your next post you say "You can get a real saw", which is clearly again an insult to anyone who likes their Sawstop. If someone said about your car "Well, if you get a real car, then..." or "Well, if you were a real parent, you'd..." That's what I call slamming. You might not be meaning it that way (since of course you can't convey much emotion through text) but that's what the words say. Consider how you'd feel if someone said that about you. Would you feel insulted?

No, I'm not sponsored by Sawstop or anything. The only one I've used is at my local Woodcraft for classes and it seems to work fine and is a well made saw. I use a slider at home.

Not to mention a Hammer K3 Winner, while definitely a great saw, is $5700 minimum, whereas a Sawstop is about 4k. A 40% higher cost isn't anything to sneeze at.

Last- I fully agree you should have complete focus 100% of the time you're operating a tool. A Sawstop is not a reason to be sloppy. It's a "belt and suspenders" system that helps if you have a momentary lapse of judgement or if something kicks a weird way. In that regard it's similar to a blade guard. If you were 100% focused at all times you don't need a blade guard... but we're not robots here, we're people, and sometimes we make mistakes.

Hello Bert, I looked over your link you stated was "proof" - I can help all understand that it most certainly is not proof of any sort. First, it is not a "government research" paper. In fact, footnotes state : "The content is solely the responsibility of the authors and does not necessarily represent the official views of the National Institutes of Health." = it is just a research paper, written by 2 people, not approved or endorsed by any government agency. The paper was written in 2013, using data that is now 10-30 years+ old. The paper is contained in a library that has many millions of papers. "None of the authors or their family members has a financial interest in any of the products, devices, or drugs mentioned in this manuscript." = standard disclaimer, says zero about who funded research. Understand that such papers are typically funded by grants - based on the 2 authors "recommendations" , it is very obvious in my opinion, who funded the "work". Paper is pretty much worthless, much conjecture & use of typical terminology used in papers of such type. Considering how Steve Gass was attempting to force all table saws sold in the USA to have his technology on them, trying to get the USA government to enforce this at that time, it is not surprising in the least such a paper was written ( by people with zero woodworking experience). Where did you get such a link ? Saw Stop site ? Whomever sent it to you is not your friend. These are the facts I observed, not an attack on you - all of us should question when "studies show..." , "research indicates ..." = many times a little research will reveal biased/false statistics & nonsense. I will be glad to help anyone sort through any similar things = what is often touted as "science" or "proof" is anything but....

[Bert McMahan]

Hello Bert, I looked over your link you stated was "proof" - I can help all understand that it most certainly is not proof of any sort. First, it is not a "government research" paper. In fact, footnotes state : "The content is solely the responsibility of the authors and does not necessarily represent the official views of the National Institutes of Health." = it is just a research paper, written by 2 people, not approved or endorsed by any government agency. The paper was written in 2013, using data that is now 10-30 years+ old. The paper is contained in a library that has many millions of papers. "None of the authors or their family members has a financial interest in any of the products, devices, or drugs mentioned in this manuscript." = standard disclaimer, says zero about who funded research. Understand that such papers are typically funded by grants - based on the 2 authors "recommendations" , it is very obvious in my opinion, who funded the "work". Paper is pretty much worthless, much conjecture & use of typical terminology used in papers of such type. Considering how Steve Gass was attempting to force all table saws sold in the USA to have his technology on them, trying to get the USA government to enforce this at that time, it is not surprising in the least such a paper was written ( by people with zero woodworking experience). Where did you get such a link ? Saw Stop site ? Whomever sent it to you is not your friend. These are the facts I observed, not an attack on you - all of us should question when "studies show..." , "research indicates ..." = many times a little research will reveal biased/false statistics & nonsense. I will be glad to help anyone sort through any similar things = what is often touted as "science" or "proof" is anything but....

Hi Dave, you can Google search "table saw accidents" and it comes up right away. Also I never said it was a government research paper, I just said it was a study. So I understand that you don't trust it, but do you have data to back up your claims? Their data and methodology is freely available in the paper. I'm happy to be informed otherwise, but their study was extremely simple. It was just "There are a crapload of hand injuries with table saws, and a mechanism that helps stop that will be significantly helpful." Here is another study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20065881/ that says the same thing, most table saw accidents are caused by contact with the blade.

I'm happy to understand how my view is wrong, but all of the testing I've ever seen clearly demonstrates that Sawstops won't hurt a hotdog that gets stuck in there. They do live demos at all of the trade shows I've heard of. Is your assertion that a Sawstop isn't safer than a standard table saw? If so please send me some sources or studies. I've seen MANY posts here on SMC with people saying how a Sawstop saved their finger. I've seen multiple studies that say finger and hand injuries are the most common type of table saw injury. I've got multiple, independent videos showing that Sawstops trigger within a very small number of teeth moving past your skin, causing only superficial damage. I don't care how fast the saw is moving, if it stops within 3 teeth moving past your hand you simply won't get much injury.

There are at least 2 additional companies with commercial, released mechanisms that do similar things to Sawstop. Clearly those companies think it's a helpful thing to have. I've yet to see even a single example of someone's hand hitting a Sawstop and still maintaining serious injuries. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I've never seen one. I'm just saying if you've got some evidence to the contrary post it up and we can all be informed.

[Richard Coers]

Anyone that says a Sawstop is not worth it, has never had a serious accident in the shop. I know a guy that watched the ends of 4 fingers go flying over his head after a kickback with a dado head in his table saw. He instantly went from a craftsman to purely an owner. They put one finger back on, but a second surgery was needed to take it back off as the pain never subsided. I cut almost all the way through my middle finger on my left hand. The surgeon that reattached the 1" back on did not trim the bone well. At my first surgery followup, the surgeon mentioned how the finger was crooked. He grabbed the end of my finger and twisted it back into place. I nearly passed out. Next week he did the same thing. I left with sweat coming off my forehead and headed to my family doctor. I told him I needed a new surgeon. This took a second surgery and he did some bone work and got it better. This took a couple months out of my life. I was fortunate to have good insurance to pay for the $15,000 for the 1984 surgery and was a hobbyist at the time. If I was a professional woodworker at the time, I would have been a huge financial hit and by my calculations, more that the cost of the Sawstop.

[Dave Roock]

Hi Dave, you can Google search "table saw accidents" and it comes up right away. Also I never said it was a government research paper, I just said it was a study. So I understand that you don't trust it, but do you have data to back up your claims? Their data and methodology is freely available in the paper. I'm happy to be informed otherwise, but their study was extremely simple. It was just "There are a crapload of hand injuries with table saws, and a mechanism that helps stop that will be significantly helpful." Here is another study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20065881/ that says the same thing, most table saw accidents are caused by contact with the blade.

I'm happy to understand how my view is wrong, but all of the testing I've ever seen clearly demonstrates that Sawstops won't hurt a hotdog that gets stuck in there. They do live demos at all of the trade shows I've heard of. Is your assertion that a Sawstop isn't safer than a standard table saw? If so please send me some sources or studies. I've seen MANY posts here on SMC with people saying how a Sawstop saved their finger. I've seen multiple studies that say finger and hand injuries are the most common type of table saw injury. I've got multiple, independent videos showing that Sawstops trigger within a very small number of teeth moving past your skin, causing only superficial damage. I don't care how fast the saw is moving, if it stops within 3 teeth moving past your hand you simply won't get much injury.

There are at least 2 additional companies with commercial, released mechanisms that do similar things to Sawstop. Clearly those companies think it's a helpful thing to have. I've yet to see even a single example of someone's hand hitting a Sawstop and still maintaining serious injuries. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I've never seen one. I'm just saying if you've got some evidence to the contrary post it up and we can all be informed.

Hello Bert, The main point I was trying to make was WHO funded their little paper & we know the answer to that. They list footnotes, which would be required on any such paper, but the 30,000 yearly figure sure appears to be a figure that was handed to them - either way it does appear many accidents occur but little analysis of who is getting injured & under what conditions. What is relevant for all is to take the 30,000 figure into context - the 2013 paper did mention that there were over 9 million + table saws in use at time (2013) in the USA - figure could be much higher in actual number. Number of injuries seems tiny in view of number of saws = 0.333 injuries per saw, 1/3 of 1%. People who feel they must have a SawStop, to be safe, should buy one. I will not ever need one anytime soon.

[Anuj Prateek]

Sawstops are silly. As long as you always pay attention you have nothing to fear. Same reason I never wear my seatbelt, it's just fearmongering. As long as I'm a safe driver I'm totally fine. Same with shoes- don't want to hurt your feet? Try not stepping on sharp things! Bike helmets? Easy, just don't fall off your bike.

That made me laugh

My contractor with over 3 decades of experience lost his thumb in the only accident with table saw. After hearing his story, I stopped looking at other saws and bought a SawStop.

[Dave Roock]

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/a...n-perspective/ This should be read by all - the perspective that just as many amputations occur in door accidents yearly as in table saw amputations = serious food for thought. Statistics, often manipulated.......

[mreza Salav]

I never understand, you see value in it you buy it, you think it's for sissies and fearful people and it never happens to you don't buy it.

[Anuj Prateek]

It's no different than insurance. One either sees it's importance or one doesn't. And then one can either afford it or one can't.

This reminds me of when technologies like ABS and non-driver airbags came out in India. There used to be similar discussions. Eventually, they became more affordable and people started buying them. Then slowly they became standard options on all cars. I think same will happen with saws and eventually other woodworking machines.

Maybe only 0.001% people lose hands in table saw accidents. I just don't want to be in that 0.001%. If quality of SawStop was low or they weren't affordable (to me) then I would have certainly looked into probabilities.

[Bert McMahan]

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/a...n-perspective/ This should be read by all - the perspective that just as many amputations occur in door accidents yearly as in table saw amputations = serious food for thought. Statistics, often manipulated.......

Are you seriously saying that it's the same thing? People use doors constantly, day in and day out. All the time. Everyone walks through a door what, dozens of times a day? And what tiny percentage of people use table saws daily? It's not even sort of a similar comparison. Talk about misleading statistics. Comparing door injuries to table saw injuries is silly and shows a profound lack of understanding of how to generate relative statistics.

Using your numbers of 0.3% annual chance of having a table saw incident, 8% of people will have one over a 30 year period. That's one in 13 people who frequently use table saws. Comparing it to a door is silly.

I'm done with this, you seem to think anyone saying a Sawstop can help is a paid shill and will reject "cute little studies" with no evidence.

[Dennis Jarchow]

Hello Dennis, A Saw Stop saw would have not prevented what happened to you - you would have been out the cost of your blade & $90 brake, plus time & labor re-installing both. For marginally a little more $, you can buy a real saw, not made in China, a Hammer K3 Winner. Look into that, I believe you will be very satisfied with your decision if you go with a Hammer K3.

I would love to have a slider but I don't have the room, nor the 5k to spend on the saw vs. $3k for the Sawstop. As a kid I watched my dad almost cut his entire thumb off with his home made death trap saw. Luckily the blade went into his hand between his thumb and index finger and just cut an inch of muscle and missed the bones. I remember wondering at the time how a neighbor driving by and honking at him could make him that careless. My little nick on the chop saw made me realize I might not be as careful as my 30 year accident free streak made me think I was. The Sawstops seem to be among the best reviewed saws in their price class. Not crazy about having to have to pay an extra $500 for the brake tech but if that is important to you, they are the only game in town. Well except for the Felder Kappa 550 with their even better finger saving tech. Course now we are back to talking about even bigger sliders I don't have room for not to mention the $15k+ I don't have.

[Larry Frank]

It is a always amazing how these threads get to be the same old thing.

The Sawstop is a very good, solid saw without even considering the safety. People will argue that this saw or another is better but really little difference.

Why all the discussion? It is so very clear. If you want a Sawstop, then buy one. If you dislike them, buy something else. I have one because it provides an extra bit of safety.

[Michael Fink]

It is a always amazing how these threads get to be the same old thing.

The Sawstop is a very good, solid saw without even considering the safety. People will argue that this saw or another is better but really little difference.

Why all the discussion? It is so very clear. If you want a Sawstop, then buy one. If you dislike them, buy something else. I have one because it provides an extra bit of safety.

I'm in agreement. I'm very happy with my PCS, it's a good saw, runs true, easy to adjust and work with. Never set of the brake, thank goodness.

If a good saw was 1K and a SS was 5K, I might forgo the protection. But a good saw is 3K and a PCS is also, around 3K, seems pretty simple to me.

My decision came down to a slider vs a SS. I still have dreams of having a slider at some point, which, frankly, is probably even safer than a SS because there's no reason to be near the blade (and has a lot of other advantages as well, of course). But I'm very happy with my SS.

I kind of see it like a car dealer saying "Would you like airbags" and then telling me "It's a 0 dollar option". Well, duh, of course I want airbags if it's not a big uplift in price!